How can the authenticity of NTHK-NPO be verified?

[Brano]

Is there any way to verify the authenticity of the NTHK document for the blade? Thank you in advance

[Ray Singer]

The directors/team members of the organization could be contacted. A few suggestions below if you want to authenticate a kanteisho from the respective groups:

 

• NTHK-NPO: Chris Bowen - https://www.facebook.com/chris.bowen.33449

 

• NTHK: Gordon Robson - https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100012197161699
• NTHK: Thom Helm - https://www.facebook.com/Tomakamakura
• NTHK: Moses Becerra - https://www.facebook.com/moses.becerra

[Brano]

Thanks Ray

[Ken-Hawaii]

What makes you think that the kanteisho might not be authentic?

[Brano]

The photo of nakago corresponds to nakago on the blade

The attribute was significantly questioned by an experienced collector

[Fuuten]

Well that won't win the day.. who would question a team of experienced connoisseurs cause someone disagrees.

[DGARBUTT]

The real issue is that any "paper"  on an unsigned blade is just an opinion, no matter how esteemed the individual or group.  Most experienced collectors have seen multiple instances where blades have received different opinions  from the same  "expert" organization.  It is a fairly regular occurrence for a mumei blade attribution to change as it proceeds from one paper to the next at the NBTHK.  "Expert"  opinion in every field is often wrong and is always subject to change 

[Fuuten]

Sure, but it's a best guess. Who would know more, a full kantei team with time on their hands or one experienced collector?

[Bugyotsuji]

Axel, I think the owner is questioning the authenticity of the document, rather than the opinion of the people whose names appear on it.

[Rivkin]

Signed Edo period, probability of another opinion from another group - 1%

Unsigned Koto: 5-10% on average, very strongly dependent on school and very strongly dependent on what to consider a different opinion. Dozen in general is not a different opinion.

Koto Soshu sunnobi tanto with little to no sori: 25%.

Yoshioka Ichimonji - about 1% (excluding dozen).

 

Chances of fake fake papers of any issuer and level - 0.01%. Realistically unheard of. There are stories about Jubi, TH, but realistically you see anything like that a few times a lifetime.

So many papers in nihonto world boost the value tremendously with relatively little effort required to fake them - and little to no ability of verification.

 

Police registrations from 1946-1948 (arbitrary sheet in poor English).

First year NBTHK papers (those of arbitrary form).

Daimyo stamps.

Daimyo sayagaki from Edo period.

Letters of princely ownership from the Household Agency.

Yet you seldom see any of those, fake or not. And almost always - they don't look fake.

 

What is common is sayagaki married to another blade, with no papers attached.

Letters from Compton to Japanese prime minister saying its a great blade.

Wooden box signed Masamune, Tokugawa collection.

 

Compared to those any paper (save Fujishiro and Jubi, but even those) can be verified with a phone call in Japanese, a personal visit to the issuing agency in Japan, an email to shinsa organizer if issued in the US... Too much trouble.

 

Kirill R.

[Bugyotsuji]

Having said all of that, I saw a set of papers earlier this year that had to be wrong.

[Ken-Hawaii]

 

"Expert"  opinion in every field is often wrong and is always subject to change

I used to own a blade with three kanteisho, two from NBTHK & one from NTHK, all of which were different. When I sold it, it was at a nice profit, because I asked the buyer enough questions to know what he liked, & that was the kanteisho he received.

[Surfson]

Brano, I assume you are referring to the Naotsune papers on another thread.  

 

I believe that these NTHK-NPO Miyano papers are genuine.  Also, my limited experience with NTHK-NPO (maybe a couple dozen submissions in Chicago, Florida or Minneapolis) is that he is very, very good and that his calls always agree with those of the NBTHK for the signed blades I have sent to Japan, but not as much on the few occasions that I have sent mumei swords for polish and restoration.

 

As to the sword itself, it looks quite beautiful to my eye and if it were mine, I would probably just enjoy it as it is rather than pursue a third (or fourth) opinion.  Kanzan and the NBTHK TK papers state it is Masamune and Miyano thought it is Naotsune - not bad attributions.  It looks nice in its current polish, but one might feel differently with the sword in hand.

 

There are plenty of threads about green papers as well as Kanzan attributions and that is up to you to ponder.  As far as Kanzan is concerned, I have a small collection of Kanzan sayagaki or hakogaki and can say that he lent his name in general to high quality pieces.  

[Brano]

Brano, I assume you are referring to the Naotsune papers on another thread.  

 

I believe that these NTHK-NPO Miyano papers are genuine.  Also, my limited experience with NTHK-NPO (maybe a couple dozen submissions in Chicago, Florida or Minneapolis) is that he is very, very good and that his calls always agree with those of the NBTHK for the signed blades I have sent to Japan, but not as much on the few occasions that I have sent mumei swords for polish and restoration.

 

As to the sword itself, it looks quite beautiful to my eye and if it were mine, I would probably just enjoy it as it is rather than pursue a third (or fourth) opinion.  Kanzan and the NBTHK TK papers state it is Masamune and Miyano thought it is Naotsune - not bad attributions.  It looks nice in its current polish, but one might feel differently with the sword in hand.

 

There are plenty of threads about green papers as well as Kanzan attributions and that is up to you to ponder.  As far as Kanzan is concerned, I have a small collection of Kanzan sayagaki or hakogaki and can say that he lent his name in general to high quality pieces.  

Hi Robert,

Yes, you are right. This thread was created yesterday after information from one of the members and his opinion on the blade. The photo of nakago on Kanteisho is 99% identical to nakago on the blade. Therefore, I was wondering if the authenticity of the document could be verified somewhere. Naotsuna and Shinshinto's attempt at Soshu Den is an abysmal difference in the view of the blade.

After sending the photos to Mr. Kenji Mishina and his opinion, I started a thread about the blade itself today. I take the attribute of Masamune with great foresight. Kanteisho is I think Naotsuna Den, but we should still be in Koto - the late Nambokucho. If so - I am satisfied and happy

[Surfson]

Hi Brano.  

If you do decide to invest further in it, it would be nice if it comes back with a Soshu or Soshu-influenced nambokucho attribution, I agree.  

 

As to the papers, was it submitted by the last owner?  If so, and you trust him, then I wouldn't worry any more about it.  

 

When I have a sword that has more than one paper and the papers differ in attribution, I feel compelled to pass along all the papers with the sword rather than choose the best.  

 

As I said, in my case, and if I enjoyed looking at the sword as it is, I would be content to accept Miyano's opinion (somehow, the Masamune call seems very aspirational....) and be done with it.  Naotsune was a great and highly regarded smith and one of the Jutetsu.  In addition, Miyano is one of the best living appraisers.  Best of luck with it, and enjoy.

[Brano]

NTHK-NPO was asked by a collector who sold me the blade.

And yes - he has my complete trust

I never thought of Masamune with this blade. He doesn't match the sugata and I'm not a complete treasure hunter.

[Katsujinken]

The garish polish on that blade was created to mislead – a caricature of Soshu, chikei, etc. – and the sayagaki is surely a forgery or shirasaya swap.

[Jamie]

 

I think In these instances just sending it to a polisher and you’ll get the best opinion. There are two in the states,and both are very helpful

[Jacques D.]

I wonder if this this asking is relevant as each one who gives an answer gives his opinion sometimes lead by his own interest.

 

Personnally i trust only the NBTHK as i came across two swords with NTHK NPO papers which were said gimei by the NBTHK shinsa, one of them was sold by Kanetoyo...