New member with newly acquired tsuba

[DMac]

Greetings,

My name is David MacNeill and I have been consulting your forum as well as Shibuiswords.com for a long time for my own research and education of Japanese swords and the art and history of Tsuba making.

 

I’m not new to the admiration of Japanese culture and the study of nihonto, but I am certainly an amateur learning the various terminology and history of the art. I have several other pieces I’d like to submit in the future but this find is most recent and exciting for me.

 

I have come into the possession of what I believe is a Nobuie tsuba and I hope you can offer some opinions. The owner was a widow who stated this was part of her husbands collection, and she did have quite a beautiful collection of various high quality tsuba. I don’t believe she knew much specifically about the tsuba and no mention of Nobuie was in the description.

 

My assessment is based on the mei, the texture and color/patina of the iron, the Kikko pattern on the mimi which I did not discover until it arrived, which made me smile when I noticed it as it was not in the photos provided to me before I purchased it and further confirmed my opinion. The mokko gata shape, and these things in totality have led me to believe it is a Nobuie. Unfortunately I don’t have a ruler handy for scale-

I appreciate everyone’s input -

 

I am fairly new to the study of Japanese sword and tsuba and appreciate any advice you can offer.

Best regards,

David MacNeill

[DMac]

[DMac]

The darkest photo represents the actual color of the tsuba the most accurately in natural light. The others I suppose are accurate in brighter lighting conditions.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Welcome to NMB, David. Please sign your first name on all posts, so we always know how to address you.

 

Nobuie is, of course, right at the pinnacle of iron tsuba, so there are many gimei tsuba out there. The mei examples I have are close to yours, but not identical, so you'll have to wait until one of the experts chimes in.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi David,

Your tsuba is signed Nobuiye but there are Nobuiye and then there are Nobuiye.  The master made many fine tsuba and his success and fame led to many thousands of other Nobuiye tsuba: some might say school work and some would say forgeries.  I am no authority on Nobuiye but I can show you a signature that has been judged authentic by the NBTHK.

https://www.japaneseswordbooksandtsuba.com/store/tsuba-%26-kodogu-over-1000/t497-signed-nobuiye-tsuba-tokubetsu-hozon-paper

Unless someone with more knowledge than I have comes along and congratulates you on your find, my best guess is that your Nobuiye is among the thousands.

Grey

[DMac]

Hello !

Thanks for the welcomes and replies so far. From my research so far most of what I have read is in the belief that there was an “original” Nobuie and then following generations, as well as the likelihood of a school under his direction signing work with his mei. So I’m wondering how does one analyze a tsuba to conclude whether the signature is forged or “genuine”. I am an artist and I would say I probably rarely sign my name twice the same way. In fact my hand writing will vary from print to cursive to block letters depending on how i feel or how fast I’m working. I also understand trying to judge an item from pictures is probably quite difficult. Regarding the tsuba itself I have no doubt it’s of some age, as I do have some experience looking at countless tsuba and several books over the last couple years, and have come to understand what to look for when trying to avoid forgeries or reproductions. As for the mei I have seen several pictures online almost identical to this one, including one posted on shibuiswords.com passage about Nobuie tsuba- but again, I know there is constant debate about what is what and how old it is. I look forward to everyone’s input on the matter. Thank you!

[kissakai]

If you are confident it should go for Shinsa as it's the only way to get a true answer

I was about 50/50 on my mine so I sent it for shinsa but it came back gimei

[Spartancrest]

Hi David, I think somewhat like you, that anyone will sign uniquely every time (whether they choose to admit it or not) so I am more wary of mei that are exactly like the 'established' examples  - if you want to fake, you copy the signature exactly - if you are the true artist the signature will simply flow and change over time. However if this holds true, no amount of expert opinion can say with absolute certainty that any piece is by the original artist. - even Shinsa experts get it wrong sometimes. I like the fact that your guard has been mounted multiple times and the slightly raised rim, but there is very little, by way of decoration.

[DMac]

I agree with everything you have said. I too observed that the nakago ana held a blade significantly bigger than its most recent mounting, that indicates to me that it could have been used or around for quite a while and was valued enough for someone to mount at least twice judging the size of the sekigane and tagane ato it would seem three times. The ume also implies repurposing. I like the lack of decoration and the subtle use of kikko on the Mimi. There is a subtle marking on the hira that seems deliberate as it is found on both sides and resembles worm damage in wood, that’s what it reminds me of... Now, I suppose my observations and yours don’t a Nobuie make. So back to my wondering. I am also a detective with the countries 8th largest police department. All of these things tell me a story and should be considered together. I’ve looked at several “papered” Nobuie tsuba which simply say the conclusion is the mei says Nobuie but does not conclude whether the tsuba is genuine or “fake”. In fact I don’t know how someone could possibly tell one way or another, it’s literally an educated guess. Use all the information you have and make a call. What is the baseline of judgement set upon? Who was the person who decided what was genuine and what was fake? Do they let their personal biases affect their opinion and What are their qualifications? Is it in the best interest of collectors to say there are only 5 genuine mei in the world and the rest are gimei- well the person that owns the genuine raise the value of his piece. I personally am not interested in the value of this tsuba, holding it jn my hand I can see someone clearly used it and valued it. That to me is enough. These are all thoughts I’m having and I’m just thinking out loud here. The more I think about it the more I am convinced a lot of grey area exists on this topic. Very intriguing!

[CSM101]

For compaison a Nobuiye from the NBTHK Museum. You can also find the tsuba in "Iron Tsuba -Kurogane no hana" pg. 51

 

Uwe G.

[Steve Waszak]

Hi David,

 

Nobuiye is, of course, a complicated and contentious subject in tosogu studies.  For anyone with a serious interest in pursuing this specialized area, I would highly recommend acquiring the Nobuiye Tsuba Shu by Iida.  This book focuses entirely on Nobuiye, and the rubbings, photos, and essays on the appreciation, study, and evaluation of Nobuiye works are especially valuable.  The essay by Katsuya Toshikazu is particularly excellent, offering extremely detailed analysis of Nobuiye sword guards, including tightly-focused examination of the sugata, the hira-ji, and of course, the mei.  I believe that if you get this book and read the essays, you'll have a better idea about which Nobuiye may have made your tsuba.   

 

In my opinion, this is an early piece, but it is not by one of the two great masters comprising the first generations.  Several things lead me to this conclusion, including aspects of the sugata, the hiraji, and the mei itself.  While I agree with you and Dale in principle regarding the fluidity of artists' signatures, three things I think should be kept in mind.  First, there is, perhaps, a meaningful difference between the way a painter/graphic artist may sign his or her works -- using a a brush or a pen -- and the way a metal smith might, using a chisel.  The latter, of course, is a much slower process, and allows for much more time to be taken to locate with precision where the strokes will be placed, their angles, depth, length, relation to one another, etc...  Second, in a culture as "calligraphically conscious" as the upper-class Japanese (for whom Nobuiye tsuba were certainly meant), there may be (have been) much greater sensitivity/awareness in general as concerns the presentation of a mei.  The very fact that these early tsuba were among the first even to be signed at least suggests the possibility that mei presentation mattered to some degree, and so, it seems rather unlikely to me that mei would have been "slapped on" cavalierly.  Finally, even within artists' signatures' variations, there are often certain consistent tendencies that remain among the evolving iterations.  It is part of the "art of mei study" to become sensitive to how these manifest in a given artist's work, subtle though they may be. 

 

In your tsuba, David, I see at least three elements of the mei that strike me as a bit "off" for a would-be futoji-mei signature (it is clear that the mei is of the futoji-mei variety, and not that of the hosoji-mei/hanare-mei Nobuiye).  While any one of these three could be brushed off fairly easily as anomalous, two bring more doubt, and all three have me deciding, based on mei alone (which I certainly wouldn't consider by itself), that the sword guard is not a true futoji-mei tsuba (That it could be the work of a student of a later (early-Edo) Nobuiye workshop, however, seems entirely plausible to me).    Of the three points of concern, one is present in the "Nobu" ji, one in the "iye" ji, and one in both.  I am happy to discuss this further with you, David, so please feel free to PM me if you like.    We could also discuss certain "issues" with the sugata of your tsuba, as well as of the hira-ji.  

 

I like your tsuba; I think it's a good early piece, and the subtle workmanship of the kikko pattern on the hira of the mimi is a good sign.   It could be a futoji-mei work, but as I say, I have my doubts.  

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

 

P.S.  Below are some examples of futoji-mei Nobuiye tsuba, just for reference...

[DMac]

Steve thank you for your reply- it is informative and thank you for taking time to explain it to me. I did not know there was a book solely focused on the study of Nobuie and I will definitely seek it out. I would like to speak further about the tsuba and I will PM you soon. I am currently in the process of moving so when I take my break tonight I’ll send a message!

Best-

David

[Steve Waszak]

Sounds good, David.  Talk to you soon. 

 

By the way, here's a link to the book in question on Grey's site:  https://www.japaneseswordbooksandtsuba.com/store/books/b952-nobuiye-tsuba-full-translation

[Grey Doffin]

Hi David,

Steve has spend serious time in study of Nobuiye tsuba; his opinion maters.

I believe this is the book he mentions:

https://www.japaneseswordbooksandtsuba.com/store/books/b232-nakamura-kakudayu-nobuiye-tanshu-translation

Oops; Steve beat me to it and it was a different book he referred to.

Grey

[DMac]

I just learned something new that is somewhat exciting- to me anyway! While studying a glossary of terms relating to tsuba, I came across the term Kosuke-Tagane which means wide carving resembling worm eaten wood- I knew that is what the marks on the tsuba resembled to my eye ! I used to work in the high end flooring industry with various exotic woods and reclaimed wood became trendy and still is today. These marks were immediately recognizable to me. I never expected there would be a term for that as I have not seen other examples applied on a tsuba as of yet.

[Steve Waszak]

Hi David,

 

Kosuke-tagane appears from time to time as a tsuba motif element.  Here is an image of a Sadahiro tsuba I used to own (Nidai, I believe) that features this.  I think I recall seeing at least one Nobuiye tsuba (futoji-mei) that utilized this feature as well.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

 

 

[Pete Klein]

I believe this hanare mei example has a bit of that effect:  

 

[DMac]

Yes I see! Very interesting. Did this imagery have any underlying meaning to the tsuba-ko or samurai?

[Pete Klein]

Probably a reminder to the evanescence of all things.

[DMac]

This was my thinking also, something similar to the cherry blossom, but a bit darker.

[Steve Waszak]

David,

 

Recently saw this tsuba on a Japanese Facebook site.  Thought you might like to see it...

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

 

 

[Pete Klein]

Yes, that tsuba is from Mitsuru Ito san sensei's Japan based study group which shares on FB.  He is quite remarkable. 

[MauroP]

I think  the correct term should be kōsuki-bori (甲鋤彫), and refers to the shell-shaped (convex) tagane used to get the smooth carved grooves.

[DMac]

Oh I’m not sure but this was the glossary I was studying when I came across the term -

[MauroP]

Hi, from "Handbook of Sword Fittings related Terms" by Markus Sesko:

[DMac]

I’ve just received another “Nobuie” tsuba that I purchased In late March before the one I’ve posted above. It was held up in shipping as Japan reduced flights and stopped outgoing mail. Should i post it here since it’s related- or start another thread?

[Pete Klein]

I would.