sound proofing a Yugo

[Bungo]

Got this from Ole Po ( haven't received it yet ) , so it's not going to be some " juyo level " tsuba but I like the way the previous owner plugged all the sukashi with what appears to be quality shakudo and some added detail on the kozuka hitsu ana.

I reckon shakudo was quite " expensive " in the Edo days and that dude would not spent extra money on, as in modern days, " 4000 bucks to sound proof a Yugo " unless he had .

 

Tsuba itself is one of those hard to place into specific school type.

So it's a Shoami ? May be Ono after ?

 

Milt

[Rich T]

I think it's an Edo period something Milt, maybe Akao !!!!

 

Rich

[Bungo]

I am looking for nie..................

 

actually I used to have a tsuba the NTHK shinsa-ed to Hoan (late gen. ) that reminded me of the mimi treatment ( the floral dip/line ).

 

Akao ? ummmmmmmmmmmm, not much info on that schol in English text ( and I mis-placed my Haynes tsuba book ).

 

milt

[Bugyotsuji]

Nice find!

 

PS How large is that?

[Guido]

I reckon shakudo was quite " expensive " in the Edo days and that dude would not spent extra money on, ...

Shakudô is typically 96% copper with only about 4% gold; shouldn't have been too expensive a material - more like putting a fox tail on a Yugo's antenna.

[Ford Hallam]

forgive me for being the geek here :| but I also like to comment on the apparent luxuriousness of shakudo.

 

In fact a perfectly solid (and indistinguishable visually from other higher grades ) black colour can be obtained on a shakudo alloy with as little as .5% gold ( half a percent ) , usually with a little shirome ( the arsenic in there does the job I think) and a similar, ie .5% silver. This is a not uncommon composition on earlier shakudo pieces.

 

At the beginning of the Edo period gold was apparently only 4 times more expensive than silver in Japan. This was why the Jesuit traders bought gold from Japan ( where, due to it's isolation the they were unaware of the much higher gold price in the rest of the trading world) and paid for it with silver pillaged from Mexico and South America.

 

I'd guestimate that there is probably no more than 20 grams of shakudo on those plugs ( they are unlikely to be solid but rather veneers of shakudo soldered to a copper base) at today's gold price that would put the cost of the gold at less than $20 and possibly as low as $5.

 

...more like furry dice hanging from the rear view mirror :D although a fox's tail does sound pretty damn cool

 

Regards,

 

Ford

[Brian]

Actual value aside, how was shakudo regarded in those days?

I mean compared to gold, silver, shibuichi, shinchu etc etc. Was it regarded as a better alloy, or just another one in the workshop that you could grab to use? For them to go to the trouble of veneering/sleeving habaki and tsuba etc occasionally, I would guess that it was fairly well respected as a working medium? To do simple plugs, I am assuming that there are easier metals to work with and they weren't taking the easier way out in this case? They obviously liked the patina that they could bring out, and did it for aesthetic reasons?

Just wondering on this slow Tuesday..

 

Brian

[Guido]

To do simple plugs, I am assuming that there are easier metals to work with and they weren't taking the easier way out in this case?

I think Ford can answer your other questions much better than me, but copper (which is the main element of Shakudô) is soft, malleable and easily worked, can be oxidized, and is relatively cheap. I don't think there is an easier way out. This, of course, doesn't mean I'm putting Milt's Tsuba down, just commenting on the misconception that Shakudô is kind of a precious metal that would lead to a considerable investment having the work on the Tsuba in question done.

[Brian]

Guido,

Why not just use copper then? This would be easier than a copper/gold alloy

I agree that shakudo wasn't as "precious" as sometimes though, but I was thinking that when making plugs, lead (as sometimes seen) or plain copper would be the easy way out.

Mind you, that doesn't apply in this case where the plugs are more decorative than just fillers and I assume shakudo was used to achieve a certain look after patination, but in the case of tsuba that do have shakudo plugs only for the kozuka and kogai bitsu I would think that they were going for slightly more than the easy way out. I guess this is in keeping with the Japanese aesthetic where the easy way out was seldom used though, and the art was more important

 

Brian

[Guido]

Brian, I'm not sure what you're going at. Lead, of coure, would be cheaper and easier to work with, but it's a poor material and doesn't patinate nicely. The addition of gold to copper gives a nicer patination/finish (but, although softer than copper, wouldn't make the alloy remarkably easier to work with since the amount of soft gold isn't big enough; that's why I only mentioned copper in my last post when talking about an "easy" material). So we're basically looking at a compromise: which material is relatively easy to work with, looks good, is strong enough for the purpose but isn't too expensive? Well, that's Shakudô. The same reason why the vast majority of (non-Tsuba) fittings are made of this material. The same reason why many people buy a Toyota (Shakudô), but not a Porsche (pure gold) or Yugo (lead).

 

The reason why virtually all Habaki are made of copper is probably work hardening; a Habaki has to be more sturdy than other fittings. I've seen solid gold or silver used for Habaki, but usually those materials are used for plating/foiling because of the look they give; pimping up for relatively little cost.

[Ford Hallam]

Gents,

 

firstly I should say that the ease with with a material could be worked was probably never a big consideration for professional craftsmen. In fact it is quite common to find that materials are used in a particular way precisely because it is difficult...Meiji period raised and hollow animals in iron sheet come to mind, these are simply crazy.

 

With regard to pure copper compared to shakudo, there is no real difference at all in the way it works...the difference only becomes evident after patination. So I'd suggest the choice of material in this case, and in all kinko work, would be essentially an aesthetic one.

[Brian]

Brian, I'm not sure what you're going at.

Don't worry Guido, I don't think I know either

While writing that, I took 3 phonecalls and by the time I was finished, I think I forgot where i was going :lol:

Agreed on all those points. I think I was also re-itterating what you all already said that that use of shakudo was more aesthetic than prestigious, and was carefully thought out and not just by chance.

Phew...anyone seen any marbles lying around?..I think I am losing a few :D

 

Brian

[Guido]

firstly I should say that the ease with with a material could be worked was probably never a big consideration for professional craftsmen.

So, you would charge the same for a sculpture of a hare as pictured no matter if sheet iron or Shakudô (and not considering the price of the material) since your real reward is the technical challenge as an artist / craftsman?

[Ford Hallam]

you sound like a bloody lawyer, Guido ...he he , nice try though. Actually the hare, which is close to life size and feels as light as though it was made of paper, isn't kinko work. It's actually a branch of tankin, hammered, or raised work. In a general sense though, yes, in my approach the basic metal is not a factor in my costing..unless you want it in gold, I'm always just horribly expensive

[Stephen]

...anyone seen any marbles lying around?..I think I am losing a few

 

 

 

seen quite a few in some recent threads ....was it this bad when i was Mod? wondering where the board is heading.

[Bungo]

so you guys are saying you do not judge the quality of the shakudo based on " patina/color " ?

 

I sort of think the Goto masters' works will not look as good if they used the shakudo of the Yokohama mama's special ( or Nagoya shriimono )........

 

To answer Bugsy's question....... it's a tanto tsuba.

 

Milt

[Brian]

Milt,

From what I am gathering here, no..the colour of the shakudo doesn't have a lot to do with the quality. The work has to confirm the attribution. However good works by their nature will have a good patina if in good condition. I don't think the shakudo patination is very deep at all, so surface wear will make the patina look dull and aged. Good patina leads you to look further at the piece, but I don't think it is conclusive of anything at all.

 

Brian

[Ford Hallam]

just to add to Brian's summation;

 

my comment regarding the visual assessment of shakudo referred specifically to compositions ranging from 1 to 4 or 5% gold content. This has actually been verified by analysing the reflected light and the actual variations in different wavelengths that make up the perceived colour.

 

regards,

 

Ford

[docliss]

Ford, please correct me if I am wrong, but I had always thought that the main problem with the use of shakudo was the technical difficulty in making a copper/gold alloy. Where did I get that idea from I wonder.

 

John L.

[kusunokimasahige]

In the first pic of the tsuba, are there remains of a signature?

 

KM

[Bungo]

" In the first pic of the tsuba, are there remains of a signature? "

 

 

nope.

 

milt

[shan]

Hello all,

I guess this is a stupid question, but how does anyone know this was not the intention of the maker and perchance this treatment of the Voids was an intentional "statement" from the start.Just wondered that all.

Regards

Shan

[Bungo]

Hello all,

I guess this is a stupid question, but how does anyone know this was not the intention of the maker and perchance this treatment of the Voids was an intentional "statement" from the start.Just wondered that all.

Regards

Shan

 

well, nothing is 100 % but we do see a lot of sukashi tsuba of similar design without the " plugs ".

 

Now, OTOH, here's one where the shakudo plug IS integral to the original design.

 

Milt

[shan]

Hi Milt,

Ah yes Hotei by the looks of it.

That works really well in that instance and its a nice Tsuba with a few techniques thrown in for effect.

However we all know Tosogu is my weakest point (one of),so i will refrain from any comments other than "i like it".

I like the original posted tsuba as well.

regards

Shan

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Dr John L,

 

sorry I didn't notice your query before....

 

The making of gold/copper alloys is not very difficult really, as long as you exclude excess oxygen which tends to be absorbed by molten copper rendering it friable. the actual mechanical properties of shakudo are virtually identical to pure copper.

 

Making good shibuichi with visible grain ( nashiji ) is an entirely different matter...that really is an art.

 

hope that helps,

 

Regards,

 

Ford

[Bungo]

" Making good shibuichi with visible grain ( nashiji ) is an entirely different matter...that really is an art. "

 

Ford,

I have a shibuchi koz with grass , basket and iris design.

I thought it's done in the kaga style but upon hands on exam, the design appears to to part of the metal, i.e. I don't see any " seams " of the inlay......

 

may be you can comment on the technique ?

 

milt

[Jean]

I have one with a dragon, no seams, nada

 

The kozuka is much better than the picture. It is destinated to the Raffle.

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Gents,

 

interesting that you both have such good examples of the same technique. I don't know if you remember but there was a discussion some time ago about the "apparent fact" that the vast majority ( if not all ) of the very fine wire, or line pattern gold inlay frequently seen on shakudo fuchi-kashira were in fact painted on with some sort of lacquer. This was the opinion of an unidentified Western expert. Uncharacteristically I left it at that....perhaps I was tired

 

Anyway...I'll enlighten you all now as to how it really is done and in fact how these kozuka were also done. Never let it be said I don't give you fellas anything :D here's your Christmas present

 

The technique is called keshi-zogan. It's basically a process of filling an engraved, or chiselled line with gold or silver amalgam. The mercury is then vaporised with heat leaving the precious metal behind. It typically takes a few applications to fill the lines completely.

 

The Tanaka school use the the technique to create those little dots on the seki-gane and those kozuka with the incredibly fine lines of script are also done in this way. There's a famous shakudo tsuba by Murakami Jochiku that has a design of a a circular crane done in gold that is also keshi-zogan.

 

I've never seen the technique done with anything other than gold or silver and of course it won't be seen on ferrous metal.

 

Another fairly common application is where you see a fine spray of tiny gold dots on a non-ferrous ground like shakudo, shibuichi or copper.

 

Regards, Ford

 

p's. don't try this at home ...it can kill you I'll post some images of the process and the result on my forum in a day or two. I did the back of one of my kagamibuta this way;this one'. It's about 4cm across.

[Bungo]

 

milt

[Jean]

Only ones which remain available after Milt's post

 

Ford, you are a master ... sorry I am short of superlative and I am not kidding