The infamous NCO black saya strikes again

[zook]

From my man Showa ...  Here is the link if you haven't already discovered:  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/233565899798?ul_noapp=true

 

Steve has commented on these many times over in past postings.  I believe I can see traces of green paint underneath.   

As I recall, there is clear documentation for painting the Type 32 swords because of the fact they were bare metal, but nothing for the 95. 

 

Stay safe -  Dan 

[BANGBANGSAN]

Grey blanket got one with black scabbard as well, the handle painted grey ...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-Japanese-ARMY-NCO-VERY-LATE-WAR-COMBAT-SWORD-W-MATCHING-NUMBERED-SCABBARD/392769460045?hash=item5b72e2574d:g:0X8AAOSwvbZenLRv

[zook]

Oh man .... that one is hard for me to look at Trystan.    Painting that handle is a travesty ... hard to restore  

[Shamsy]

Would be good to post this in the original thread, Dan. I was compiling a list of repainted black to provide some evidence that the black paint is period, not original. Of course, an obviously recent painting does not need to be included, as it does not lend any credence to my theory.

[BANGBANGSAN]

At least now the handle match 's his blanket

 

  On 4/24/2020 at 1:48 AM, zook said:

Oh man .... that one is hard for me to look at Trystan.    Painting that handle is a travesty ... hard to restore  

[zook]

Good point Steve - done!   I am off to sleep.  Chat soon folks.   Dan 

[Shamsy]

Cheers Dan

[Dave R]

  On 4/24/2020 at 1:25 AM, BANGBANGSAN said:

Grey blanket got one with black scabbard as well, the handle painted grey ...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-Japanese-ARMY-NCO-VERY-LATE-WAR-COMBAT-SWORD-W-MATCHING-NUMBERED-SCABBARD/392769460045?hash=item5b72e2574d:g:0X8AAOSwvbZenLRv

 That might, just might, not be paint! Late war there were some odd substitutions, here's one with a "rubber" or some other synthetic tsuka. 

[Shamsy]

That's a bakerlite handle, Dave. It now belongs to a member here and I was lucky enough to get a good look over it. The scabbard is a kind of rubber. As far as I have seen, it is entirely unique.

 

Quick edit to add that the quality of the finish on the pattern 5 95 varied considerably. Some were well carved, smooth and oiled/varnished. Others are very rough and unfinished wood. The Jinsen ones are slightly different again and almost look like a different kind of timber, but are of the lower quality finish. There are so many small variations on pattern 5, it's a really interesting one to study.

[Dave R]

  On 4/24/2020 at 10:27 AM, Shamsy said:

That's a bakerlite handle, Dave. It now belongs to a member here and I was lucky enough to get a good look over it. The scabbard is a kind of rubber. As far as I have seen, it is entirely unique.

 

 I did wonder about that one, thank you for the clarification.

[IJASWORDS]

Here are a couple of my pattern 5's, only a few hundred numbers apart. Notice the differences in the drags. 

[Bruno]

There is little doubt this seller is doctoring these swords up, not only this NCO.

I have compared the Type 98 he had for sale for weeks, and I am pretty sure he is using a technique to re-paint scabbards then add artificial aging on them. Same for the fittings on which he seems to apply  a "new old" patina on. Plus of course, but that's ok, new tsukamaki.

 

Compared to the Type 98 other sellers have, his are most of the time close to new condition.

 

I won't bit a dead horse mentioning the acid treatment on blades that we are all aware of.

[Shamsy]

I agree, Bruno. There are some very common areas of wear on the scabbard of 95s. They almost always have at least a little bit of wear in these key areas and in a consistent pattern. Where I see a sword without that wear or at least signs of it starting (excluding mint examples), I'm always suspicious. It's a good way to tell a sword apart. The sword listed by Showa has wear, but it's in the wrong places, about where one would expect to see wear where a repainted scabbard is doctored to appear aged.

 

Anyway, I don't believe any swords from pattern 5 or earlier were originally black. It is my belief that some were period repaint (as with the snow camouflage), while others are post war to try and cash in on a 'variation'. It doesn't help that Dawson's lists them as a rare. I'm sure some 'book experts' I so dislike (and perhaps some real experts) will disagree, which is why I started posting examples on the other thread, so I can at least have some sort of evidence-based argument, beyond my own observations which I never bothered to record.

[Bruno]

Yes Steve, I agree with you. The guy knows how to attract naive buyers and make more money. It is quite easy to spot the acid treatment but guessing he also duffing the whole koshirae is another story.

 

About the Type 95, there is one quite similar on Ohmura's website which top of the scabbard is black but the rest is green. Did you see it?

[Shamsy]

No, I don't think I have, Bruno. Is it one of the pattern 6, 7 or 8? Do you have a picture or link?

[Bruno]

Steve, 

 

Here is the link:

 

http://ohmura-study.net/792.html

 

The bottom os the scabbard is also black.

[Shamsy]

Ah yeah, standard for pattern 6, 7 and 8. That's the metal parts of the saya. Thin steel, painted black. You Can also find the saya painted black too.

[vajo]

Dave the saya is coated with a kind of sand and urushi lacquer. I had the same on a RJT Sword.

 

[Dave R]

  On 4/29/2020 at 8:20 AM, vajo said:

Dave the saya is coated with a kind of sand and urushi lacquer. I had the same on a RJT Sword.

 

sandcoated.jpg

 

 It really is a very interesting sword, weird but interesting! I would love to know more about where it came from, and how/why it was mounted like that.

[Shamsy]

The saya is vulcanised rubber from memory. We think maybe a prototype, using different materials to see if they were suitable. Just a theory though, No real evidence.

[Erwin]

Dear All,

 

Regarding the NCO Black colour discussion, this is the version I have.

I understand these are rare as discribed in various books (see attached)  but have no evidence this Black is applied post production.

 

Best regards

Erwin

[Bruce Pennington]

Erwin,

That is a GORGEOUS example! I see even the tsuba is painted black.

 

Would you be comfortable doing something for me? If you carefully remove the screw and remove the saya throat, there is a tab on the throat. Bubba-jobs usually don't remove the throat when they paint and the tab will have the original color. I'm attaching a picture of mine and you can see there is no other green paint there, so I believe mine is original too. It is also a Nagoya product.

The greenish tint is just bad photography and oxidation

[Erwin]

Hi Bruce

 

Thanks for your reply and I have not done this so far but for sure will give it a try in the next day or so and provide you with some pictures.

 

Best regards

Erwin

[Shamsy]

Ah, I just asked for this in the other thread, Bruce!

I think the tab should be painted. I've only taken a couple off (easiest way to totally bugger up that soft screw), so I readily agree I may be wrong, but in those instances, the tab was painted green. If it is not, it is my opinion the saya has been properly stripped and repainted, which is why there are no traces of green/brown, no paint on the tab and the patina is entirely lacking, making the sword look mint.

That looks very much to be the case with your sword, Erwin. Please post more pictures of the hanging ring, just below this on the saya, the gap between the throat piece and the saya body (where they connect), the blade and the drag. In your favour is that the paint is gloss, too. Though I feel that argument point is getting old and irrelevant, as gloss and mat paint seem to be used throughout production of 95s.

I'll post a picture of a black saya pattern 5 which was repainted for comparison. I'm happy for people to have differing opinions, since Stegel and I don't agree on this entirely, provided people can present facts and evidence. Anything written in Dawson's doesn't count!

[Erwin]

Hi Steve,

 

Attached a couple of more pictures I took of some details and Bruce, also took the Saya throat of for some additional pictures.

 

It is much similar to the pictures you shared

 

Best regards

Erwin