Did it Have Rim or Not

[Krystian]

Hello, 

 

I am posting this after very heated discussion on facebook. Mostly about esthetics of this tsuba but Mike Yamaski made some great points I would like to study a bit more. 

 

I thought that the rim was removed and than this tsuba was placed on a stand. He pointed out that it might not be a case at all. So:

 

 

1. Did It have rim and It was removed, or It never had a rim in the first place?

 

 

2. Have you seen more tsuba that originally did not have a rim? 

 

 

3. And if so have you ever seen them mounted on a sword?

 

 

I will try to go through my books tonight but all information would be appreciated. 

Regards, 

Krystian  

 

 

[RobertM]

Doesn't the markings on the stand show where the rim was removed?

[Krystian]

The iron that goes in to wooden stand is one piece. In my opinion it is to thin to be a part of the rim that was left.

[Tanto54]

I think that only someone who has never worn a sword would think that this could be used without a rim....

 

Without a rim, there would be too many places where it could catch on clothing (etc.) when being worn, drawn or used.  It appears that some of the tail feathers may have been filed narrow as if to fit a furukin or after being cut from the rim.  As for the metal going into the stand being too small as you said, couldn't it have been filed down like Orikaeshi-Mei (before or after it was bent down)?

[Krystian]

I agree that I could not be worn on daily basis, but possibly ceremonial or special occasion? 

 

It could be that it was file. I need to examine it again tomorrow. 

[Gunome]

I think there was a rim that was removed.

Look at the legs, we still see a part of it

[Krystian]

few more pictures of legs

[Krystian]

It looks like the stand is part of original rim. 

[Andi B.]

Obviously there is a bent part of the rim still at the feet. What else is this???

 

Should be easy to draw a rim over the picture and then we see how it looks like. Probably similar to this:

https://images.app.goo.gl/f6uyRA79NwF8JxFN6

[ChrisW]

You can see the grain of the metal curving as it goes into the stand. I think there was originally a rim but then for some reason, it was removed and the remainder bent into being the anchor for the piece.

[Ganko]

I believe the original rim was sawn with a jewelers saw all around the upper periphery with the portion the legs are on left intact. The sawn area was then bifurcated and bent downward to form the stand. That is evident by the cracking at the 90 degree junction. Where it was sawn you can also see file marks that clean up the sawn areas. Also there is a hint of some masame like lines at the bent area. It makes an interesting display piece. Personally I would rather have it in it's original configuration.

[PietroParis]

Obviously there is a bent part of the rim still at the feet. What else is this??? Should be easy to draw a rim over the picture and then we see how it looks like.

 

[Bugyotsuji]

If the rim got damaged, (many of them do), then one solution presenting itself would have been to remove the rim and create a work of art.

[Brian]

Wow..the FB post got a little "heated"
You have posted far better pics here, so I can see why some there have the opinions they do. Personally I think it did have a rim for the reasons above. And all the contact points where it would have met a mimi show signs of work and filing.
But the rim doesn't meet the work 100%. Close though....

 

[Krystian]

Facebook cuts almost all of the pictures quality. That is why I put a link to a website where there are many high quality pictures. There is also a zoom option there so you can see everything even better.... 

 

 

I truly want to show how an item looks like. That is why a white background, lots of light and quality equipment. Tsuba will always look better in real life than on those pictures but at least you can see everything there is to see.. 

[Krystian]

This is most probably how it looked with a rim. There was another layer of feathers is some places. 

 

I am sorry about the pictures. They look fine on my copmuter but here are on the side.

 

 

[Brian]

Well done. I would say mystery solved

[Spartancrest]

There are a lot of altered guards out there, some were obvious castings that broke and were cut down others were modified for who knows what reason. These are some of mine - novelty items.