Example of a re-temper

[Oshy]

Came across this, curious if this is an example of a blade that has been re-tempered? Looks a little funny in some spots/angles.

 

https://www.facebook.com/pg/Samurai-sword-and-others-311039152711539/photos/?tab=album&album_id=842749512873831&ref=page_internal

[ROKUJURO]

Mike,

as many others, I am not on Facebook, so I could not see what you mean.

Can you please show some photos here and expand on what you see?

[paulb]

Hi Mike,

Normally if a blade is retemepered there are a number of telltale signs. The hada tend to look "glassy" there is mizukage (not sure of spelling) which shows itself as a cloudy line running at an acute angle from the hamachi towards the shinogi and the sori tends to be exaggerated. I don't see any of these on the images you linked to. The hamon does look a little strange but I don't think that is a result of Saiha.

[Oshy]

Thanks Paul!

 

Jean, here are some pictures:

 

[ChrisW]

If there is a mizukage, that'd be the dead giveaway.

[ROKUJURO]

Mike,

I think what we see here is the effect of a rather 'sloppy' polish, not SAIHA.

[Grey Doffin]

I agree; the polish is a stinker.

Grey

[Geraint]

Dear all.

 

"If there is a mizukage, that'd be the dead giveaway."

 

 

Careful with this, not always the case.  See here and scroll to the end. http://www.ksky.ne.jp./~sumie99/utsuri.html

Mizukage is also a feature of some smiths work.

 

All the best.

[ChrisW]

That's true. I forgot about that! Have to agree with Grey though, that polish is meh.

[vajo]

Re-temper?    I didn't see anything like this on that sword. 

[16k]

Gotta say I’m not seeing it either...

[Oshy]

Thanks for the input everyone! Love to learn ????

[Andi B.]

While performing initial yaki-ire the blade should still have an unsharpened edge to avoid any hardening cracks.

After a fire damage isn't it required to reshape the blade to a 'new born' shape to withstand a second hardening process?

This followed by a new foundation and final polish, I assume the blade will lose a noticeable amount of steel.

So could mizukage on a very healthy blade speaks against a re-tempering?

[Dave R]

 You might find this interesting... 

 

http://www.nihontocraft.com/Yakinaoshi.html

[Ken-Hawaii]

Sanbonsugi hamon, & the polish isn't that bad.

[Bruce Pennington]

Ok, don't groan too loudly, but for a guy completely ignorant about polishing, can someone possibly explain for me why the hamon pattern on this is a result of it? I'm like Mike at the start - it looks like a suguha overlaid by a wavy hamon. Seems like 2 patterns.

[RichardP]

  On 4/18/2020 at 3:20 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Ok, don't groan too loudly, but for a guy completely ignorant about polishing, can someone possibly explain for me why the hamon pattern on this is a result of it? I'm like Mike at the start - it looks like a suguha overlaid by a wavy hamon. Seems like 2 patterns.

Me three! Hoping I’m not muddying the waters, but there’s this, from Mr. Hofhine’s site:

“If the blade has a hamon such as sanbon-sugi or some togari-ba, a sashikomi finish may also be preferable. This is because the hamon consisting of many narrow, high, widely separated peaks, may not fit well into a keisho wave form...”

(http://ipolishswords.com/Keisho.html)

Regarding this polish, would it be fair to criticize the suguha element as overexposed? (The suguha seems to cut through the peaks and overpower them, resulting in what seems like two overlapping hamons, rather than a single harmonious one—or am I well off base?)

Here’s Mr. Brockbank on sanbonsugi:

https://yuhindo.com/kanemoto-katana/

[Tom Darling]

I doubt it, looks normal.  In fact I have never seen a re-tempered ubu waki, of course there are always exceptions. Peace.

 

 

Tom D.

[Lance]

 My understanding is you will never see  the remnants of an old hamon on a re hardened sword, as before a new one is created  the blade is heated and allowed to cool naturally.  This removes the old hamon, both functionally and visibly.  (I think this is also when the grain takes on the looser and glassy look,from multiple expansion contraction and change in carbon content) 

  From the photos it just  looks like the polisher didn't consistently follow the hamon, so the peaks aren't as white as the the rest when using  hazuya finger stones, 

 

http://www.ksky.ne.jp./~sumie99/utsuri.html

 

  

 As an aside, maybe I just haven't seen enough swords or my logic is faulty,  but I  don't think there are as many re-tempered swords out there as people believe.  It seems to me any swords that were really important  and worth the effort are already very  rare, (for example blades made by Koto masters damaged in a fire  that were given to Echizen Yasatsugu and re tempered  for the Shogun)

Any munitions grade swords for ashigaru  or even mid level blades were probably scrapped, and not worth digging through the rubble after a  castle fire, and any that were reworked during a campaign due to battle wear saw attrition through just being used up.   

Regards,

Lance