New Member With Sword

[Doomsday Runner]

  On 4/14/2020 at 2:10 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

My first instinct was that this is a fake. Like the guys said above, even DURING the war, fakes were being made. I read an article, with pictures, of Aussies making fake swords for gullible G.I.s! But, and I could be wrong, fakes, over time, have started really badly and gotten better. There are things that are right in the details that fakers normally miss.

 

This post came at just the right time, as we have recently had some info provided by Nick Komiya over at Warrelics about how Allied bombing in '44 and '45 had so devastated Japanese mainland factories, they were transfering production to Jinsen and Nanman with intructions to make stuff (the letter was speaking of rifles and bayonettes) that will stab and shoot, regardless of appearance. This may be what we're seeing here.

 

There is a chance that this is just a hastily made (poorly made) gunto from a shop in Korea or China (Manchuria). Might even explain the colors. I looked closer at the ito and it appears to be brown, but laquered red. Some of the laquer is rubbed off in the area I've circled.

 

The leather saya cover is in Japanese correct styling, but BLUE? And it just looks too new, as do the same' and ito. Maybe that's because it had just been made prior to surrender? It's been sitting at the family home for all these years, so that might explain the newness.

 

I have seen tough cases that could go either way, but usually the fine details make me lean to "fake," but in this case, the fine details make me lean toward "Manchurian made, 1945". But all this is speculation. Mark, you'll have to weigh the evidence and make your own call. In either case, it is a piece of family history, and that makes it valuable regardless of the gunto's origins.

 

Brian - I think the guys on the Military Thread would enjoy this discussion. Think a move is possible?

Thanks for your feedback Bruce, what you have said got me looking and I have noticed something else, please see photo attached. Overpaint.

[SAS]

There was a thread a while back on auxiliary swords; this could well be one of the late war output.

[vajo]

Mark the tsuka ito was often lacquered. It was not unusual.

[dwmc]

  On 4/13/2020 at 4:35 PM, Doomsday Runner said:

I can 100% tell you its genuine and was brought back from Kowloon on Sept 22nd 1945 and we have the paperwork to back this as my grandfather was an RAF liberator. Also have a signed Japanese silk flag and Japanese binoculars.

 

Mark, Your grandfather's story makes perfect sense to me. The Japanese sword through out Asia in the 1930's and 40's was considered the absolute symbolof power and authority. Occasionally, a sword shows up on the NMB such as yours, which does not fit the traditional appearance of the Japanese Shingunto.

Often, they are considered "fake" to the astonishment of the individual requesting assistance. The word fake often implies deceit and deception. Perhaps, better described as an attempt to reproduce.

 

There are thousands of relatively modern fake Japanese swords these days. Yours (in my opinion is not one of them). As with some of the type your grandfather brought back, these where an attempt to reproduce the Shingunto with local skills somewhat less than traditional Japanese sword smiths.

They were produced locally with of sense their personal artistic flavor. The nakago on your sword is really not bad compared to some of the Island made Shingunto.

 

I can understand your grandfather picking this sword out of the pile, not really having the experienc as to what he was looking for, a colorful sword laying in pile of beat up Shingunto may have looked like a good choice.

 

I wonder at some point whether these types of Island made or occupied area swords will be considered unique and find a place in the history?

 

I'm sure Dave R. will help you reach a conclusion at your future meeting.

 

Best regards,

 

Dave M.

[Doomsday Runner]

  On 4/14/2020 at 5:02 PM, dwmc said:

Mark, Your grandfather's story makes perfect sense to me. The Japanese sword through out Asia in the 1930's and 40's was considered the absolute symbolof power and authority. Occasionally, a sword shows up on the NMB such as yours, which does not fit the traditional appearance of the Japanese Shingunto.

Often, they are considered "fake" to the astonishment of the individual requesting assistance. The word fake often implies deceit and deception. Perhaps, better described as an attempt to reproduce.

 

There are thousands of relatively modern fake Japanese swords these days. Yours (in my opinion is not one of them). As with some of the type your grandfather brought back, these where an attempt to reproduce the Shingunto with local skills somewhat less than traditional Japanese sword smiths.

They were produced locally with of sense their personal artistic flavor. The nakago on your sword is really not bad compared to some of the Island made Shingunto.

 

I can understand your grandfather picking this sword out of the pile, not really having the experienc as to what he was looking for, a colorful sword laying in pile of beat up Shingunto may have looked like a good choice.

 

I wondering at some point whether these types of Island made or occupied area swords will be considered unique and find a place in the history?

 

I'm sure Dave R. will help you reach a conclusion at your future meeting.

 

Best regards,

 

Dave M.

My grandad told me when he got this sword, he was one of the last ones to get to them and it was not as good as all the ones that had already been taken. So he was fully aware it did not look as good as the ones that had already been taken by others in his group (RAF 5358 Airfield Construction Wing).

[Tom Darling]

The bring back papers, would have the Gi's name, with items he acquired, and would like to seem them.   

 

 

Tom D.

[Doomsday Runner]

  On 4/14/2020 at 6:01 PM, Tom Darling said:

The bring back papers, would have the Gi's name, with items he acquired, and would like to seem them.   

 

 

Tom D.

Have all his RAF papers even his cap still. Don't seem to be any bring back papers that we can see.

[dwmc]

  On 4/14/2020 at 5:14 PM, Doomsday Runner said:

My grandad told me when he got this sword, he was one of the last ones to get to them and it was not as good as all the ones that had already been taken. So he was fully aware it did not look as good as the ones that had already been taken by others in his group (RAF 5358 Airfield Construction Wing).

 

You got  what you could in those situations. There are, and always will be far fewer of these occupied area reproductions...either way it's a excellent momento of a time and place in your grandfathers past...

 

Best regards,

 

Dave M.