New Member With Sword

[Doomsday Runner]

Thanks for accepting me, my name is Mark from Wakefield in the UK. Im looking for a little bit more information on a WW2 sword I have, please see attached photos, hope someone can help. Its just been brought down from the loft and requires a good clean up. Advise on cleaning would also be helpful.

[ChrisW]

I am not convinced that this is legitimate, but more experienced members will be able to tell you more. The things that tell me this are: the red ito (never seen such a thing on a gunto, and never this new-looking), the black leather saya cover (another thing that screams new), the poor quality cast of the tsuba.

[Doomsday Runner]

I am not convinced that this is legitimate, but more experienced members will be able to tell you more. The things that tell me this are: the red ito (never seen such a thing on a gunto, and never this new-looking), the black leather saya cover (another thing that screams new), the poor quality cast of the tsuba.

I can 100% tell you its genuine and was brought back from Kowloon on Sept 22nd 1945 and we have the paperwork to back this as my grandfather was an RAF liberator. Also have a signed Japanese silk flag and Japanese binoculars.

[vajo]

Hello Mark

 

can you show a picture of the bare blade?

 

I have some doubts that it is Japanese. I'm really sure it is fake. 

 

Edit: I changed my mind and explained it...

[ChrisW]

You said it was obtained in Kowloon in 1945? That explains quite a lot. Legitimate Japanese blades coming out of China are almost unheard of and they are infamous for the fake Japanese sword industry there that persists to this day. A bit surprising to know it was still happening during WWII.
 

No offense, but in all likelihood, this is a fake that was made at the end of WWII and sold to your grandfather on the pretense it was a real Japanese sword. It happened A LOT.

 

I can't speak for the blade itself, but the mountings are definitely not of Japanese origin in their entirety. Some parts look okay such as the kabutogane.

[Dave R]

This is one of those borderline pieces, but I have to warn you, an origin in Kowloon (Old City?) in 1945 is no guarantee of it being Japanese. They were already being faked by the locals....

 

 This is why we need photo's of the complete blade, with special focus on the tang, and the point.

[ChrisW]

A quick search of Kowloon reveals it is a neighborhood that exists as part of Hong Kong; renown for its corruption, poverty, and control by the triad. A large portion was bulldozed by the Chinese government in the 1990's and rebuilt.

 

I also second what Dave just said; those pictures will help judge the veracity of the blade itself.

[Doomsday Runner]

You said it was obtained in Kowloon in 1945? That explains quite a lot. Legitimate Japanese blades coming out of China are almost unheard of and they are infamous for the fake Japanese sword industry there that persists to this day. A bit surprising to know it was still happening during WWII.

 

No offense, but in all likelihood, this is a fake that was made at the end of WWII and sold to your grandfather on the pretense it was a real Japanese sword. It happened A LOT.

 

I can't speak for the blade itself, but the mountings are definitely not of Japanese origin in their entirety. Some parts look okay such as the kabutogane.

My grandfather did not buy this, it was collected from the pile of weapons when the RAF liberated.

[ChrisW]

Okay!

 

Well, I am not an expert in any capacity. I shall defer to those who have far more expertise.

[Doomsday Runner]

More photos added to original post, hope this helps.

[Geraint]

Dear Mark.

 

Please add your name to your posts, you can auto add in your profile.  It is always difficult to tell from photographs but there are a number of red flags here.  Have a good look at this one, https://www.aoijapan.com/img/sword/2010/10172koshirae.jpg  Look at the pommel, the guard, the washers and the blade collar, (kabutogane, tsuba, sepps, habaki in Japanese) 

 

It is especially hard to be objective when family service history is involve.  However you are not many miles away from the Northern Token Society, or you could go for the Token Society of Great Britain.  As soon as all this ends you could go along to a meeting and show them your sword for educated confirmation one way or another. 

 

All the best.

[vajo]

Mark we need to see the bare blade. Without habaki. 

 

Not that things around the blade 

[Doomsday Runner]

Here are a couple more photos, I was first shown the sword in 1971 as its been in our family since WW2.

[Doomsday Runner]

Dear Mark.

 

Please add your name to your posts, you can auto add in your profile.  It is always difficult to tell from photographs but there are a number of red flags here.  Have a good look at this one, https://www.aoijapan.com/img/sword/2010/10172koshirae.jpg  Look at the pommel, the guard, the washers and the blade collar, (kabutogane, tsuba, sepps, habaki in Japanese) 

 

It is especially hard to be objective when family service history is involve.  However you are not many miles away from the Northern Token Society, or you could go for the Token Society of Great Britain.  As soon as all this ends you could go along to a meeting and show them your sword for educated confirmation one way or another. 

 

All the best.

We live 5 miles away from the Royal Armouries in Leeds, would anyone there be able to help?

[16k]

Mark,

 

I don’t doubt your story or the age of the sword, but everything is wrong for a Japanese sword. Whatever this is, it’s not Japanese., sorry.

[paulb]

Mark

If you let me have your contact details I will happily give you contact details for the Armouries and my contact details if you wish to discuss your sword

Regards

Paul

[vajo]

Ok, here is my opinion. Its a waki. Could be older. Its mounted in a homeland defense koshirae in the last days of the war.Overall very low quality. Thats the best guess i can give.

The ito is lacquered red and it is wraped in Japanese style.

 

For me it is a Japanese made sword. Not a fake.

 

The best is to move the thread in the military thread. Neil, Shamsy and others have a huge collection of such kind of swords. Maybe they could find out more.

 

For the blade i dont want to give a false answer. Maybe it has some value. I could really recommend that you give it in trained hands. The mune looks promising in my eyes. But what i know.

[Doomsday Runner]

Mark

If you let me have your contact details I will happily give you contact details for the Armouries and my contact details if you wish to discuss your sword

Regards

Paul

Thank you.

[Doomsday Runner]

Ok, here is my opinion. Its a waki. Could be older. Its mounted in a homeland defense koshirae in the last days of the war.Overall very low quality. Thats the best guess i can give.

The ito is lacquered red and it is wraped in Japanese style.

 

For me it is a Japanese made sword. Not a fake.

 

The best is to move the thread in the military thread. Neil, Shamsy and others have a huge collection of such kind of swords. Maybe they could find out more.

Thank you.

[Doomsday Runner]

Thanks for all your help, would like to get it cleaned up either way.

[Dave R]

Hiya,

 

  The Royal Armouries Association generally meet last Thursday of every month except December, 19.30 to 21.00 in the Library. On lock-down currently, but that will not be for ever. It will be nice to see you there one day.

 

 Just a thought though, the all brown tassel used to be thought to be late war army, current thinking is that it indicated "Gunzoku" who are auxiliaries rather like Pay-corp, education officers, telegraphists etc. This "might" account for the oddities, the emphasis on might! 

[Doomsday Runner]

Hiya,

 

  The Royal Armouries Association generally meet last Thursday of every month except December, 19.30 to 21.00 in the Library. On lock-down currently, but that will not be for ever. It will be nice to see you there one day.

Thank you, would be nice to get up to see you all. The sword comes with the story from my grandad. Our son is in the Royal Navy and will be dropping his Pooley sword in for a clean up. He has messaged them to ask if he can drop this one in too for a clean up. He has not had a reply yet.

[raynor]

Can't comment on the blade, but that habaki is first and foremost not safe, don't try to swing the blade with any force even through air. Second, I thought I saw a Kaga style habaki but upon enlarging the photo it became clear its a very poor reproduction, photo of antique copper Kaga habaki attached for comparison.

 

[Jon MB]

I agree with Chris's verdict.

 

 

Ok, here is my opinion. Its a waki. Could be older. Its mounted in a homeland defense koshirae in the last days of the war.Overall very low quality. Thats the best guess i can give.

The ito is lacquered red and it is wraped in Japanese style.

 

For me it is a Japanese made sword. Not a fake.

 

The best is to move the thread in the military thread. Neil, Shamsy and others have a huge collection of such kind of swords. Maybe they could find out more.

 

For the blade i dont want to give a false answer. Maybe it has some value. I could really recommend that you give it in trained hands. The mune looks promising in my eyes. But what i know.

[16k]

Ok, here is my opinion. Its a waki. Could be older. Its mounted in a homeland defense koshirae in the last days of the war.Overall very low quality. Thats the best guess i can give.

The ito is lacquered red and it is wraped in Japanese style.

 

For me it is a Japanese made sword. Not a fake.

 

The best is to move the thread in the military thread. Neil, Shamsy and others have a huge collection of such kind of swords. Maybe they could find out more.

 

For the blade i dont want to give a false answer. Maybe it has some value. I could really recommend that you give it in trained hands. The mune looks promising in my eyes. But what i know.

 

it’s a sound reasoning, but there’s something I don’t like in the proportion of the nakago in comparison to the width of the blade. But maybe it’s a visual trick induced by the presence of the Habaki.

[Bruce Pennington]

My first instinct was that this is a fake. Like the guys said above, even DURING the war, fakes were being made. I read an article, with pictures, of Aussies making fake swords for gullible G.I.s! But, and I could be wrong, fakes, over time, have started really badly and gotten better. There are things that are right in the details that fakers normally miss.

 

This post came at just the right time, as we have recently had some info provided by Nick Komiya over at Warrelics about how Allied bombing in '44 and '45 had so devastated Japanese mainland factories, they were transfering production to Jinsen and Nanman with intructions to make stuff (the letter was speaking of rifles and bayonettes) that will stab and shoot, regardless of appearance. This may be what we're seeing here.

 

There is a chance that this is just a hastily made (poorly made) gunto from a shop in Korea or China (Manchuria). Might even explain the colors. I looked closer at the ito and it appears to be brown, but laquered red. Some of the laquer is rubbed off in the area I've circled.

 

The leather saya cover is in Japanese correct styling, but BLUE? And it just looks too new, as do the same' and ito. Maybe that's because it had just been made prior to surrender? It's been sitting at the family home for all these years, so that might explain the newness.

 

I have seen tough cases that could go either way, but usually the fine details make me lean to "fake," but in this case, the fine details make me lean toward "Manchurian made, 1945". But all this is speculation. Mark, you'll have to weigh the evidence and make your own call. In either case, it is a piece of family history, and that makes it valuable regardless of the gunto's origins.

 

Brian - I think the guys on the Military Thread would enjoy this discussion. Think a move is possible?

[vajo]

Bruce there where black leather cover too and the snaps look not like the typical chinese ones.

 

[Brian]

I vote for real. But further than that, I can't say.

[Doomsday Runner]

Thanks for all your feedback guys, I will get this checked out once we are all free to do so. In the meantime if any of you require anymore photos i'm more than happy to take any you require.

[Doomsday Runner]

 

Sorry attached to wrong post.