last ditch naval rinji?

[hobnails]

Hi, guys, I have been reading with interest the great information posted by Bruce and Nick Komiya and others about

Rinji seishiki ( type 3) swords and came across a post that Bruce posted end of last year about a navy rinji model

and was wondering if a sword my mate as currently selling fits the "last-ditch" rinji spec would be interested to hear

your thoughts.

 

Chris H

 

[Shamsy]

That's one of the many variations of the very late war swords that share similar characteristics. It's not an NCO sword and some even seem to be signed (or at least have something carved on the nakago). I have one pretty identical, though it does not have any black paint on the wood (some seem not to, some do). Stegal has one about the same, though his has the black paint. What I'm getting at is that these are uncommon but not unheard of and usually conform to a reasonably similar design. Thick, plain brass tsubas, thin iron bands on the handle and saya, either smooth wooden handles or some basic cross-hatching, a very plain suspension ring. The sword you've posted is a perfectly 'typical' example of these. Is it signed?

 

I'll post mine shortly as an edit. Just need some pictures.

 

Oh, will post some other examples of your sword 'model' I have saved. I think Stegal had gathered these together. No, I don't believe these are fakes. There are quite a few and there are enough similarities that there seems to be some coordination in production. However, they are all very crude and definitely not well made. The fact some are signed too... I can't remember who posted it, but years ago, someone posted one which was translated to read something other than a smith name. I think it was the name of a civilian organisation. They (the poster) included some research that said the sword in question was made by a volunteer organisation and donated to the army.

 

They may also be island swords. It was years ago I remember reading about some civilians that were making and donating swords... if anyone remembers that please post a link or info.

[Shamsy]

Here is my sword, very similar to yours, but with a cross hatch and no paint, except on the tsuba (mostly gone).

 

Can anyone tell me what the painting on the tang reads? I assume just numbers.

[Bruce Pennington]

Dang, you guys just blew me out o' the water! I've never seen this before (if I have don't remind me, let me enjoy this!!! Ha!)

 

Here's the link to the thread Chris is referencing: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/30677-navy-rinji-model/?hl=%2Bnavy+%2Brinji

 

Here's the description provide by Nick: "the navy also issued a "Last Ditch" Rinji spec directive for officer swords on 27th March 1945. Directive Number 54 said "1: Gilding, Gold Colored Metal and Cherry branch engravings are to cease, 2:Sarute not to be attached, 3:Only one Haikan (scabbard ring) to be present, 4: Use of animal skins to be minimized, 5: Push button type locks to be changed to tie-cord type, 6: Scabbards to be wrapped in tree bark and be finished with black lacquer."

 

All of these on this post appear to fit the description! Wow!

[PNSSHOGUN]

It amazes me that despite this being the very last ditch effort and the whole sword being quite crude there is still a level of careful refinement and quality to be seen. Not even modern martial arts swords that cost thousands have an overall fine shape to the Koshirae as this. This design reminds me of the test Tsuka the Yamada family used with metal bands used to reinforce the Tsuka.

[Shamsy]

I have no idea whether they are naval swords or not. They're usually painted all black though. No idea if that means anything.

 

You're correct though, John. Yes they are crude, but they still have a very good fit and a level of refinement that I think precludes an immediate assumption of island sword.

 

It's all speculation as to what they are. All I know for sure is that there are a few, they fit a general pattern/design, the construction is good, some bear carvings on the nakago.

 

You'll notice in the second of the random pictures, the tsuba clearly has a sun-ray seppa. So maybe some credence to your theory Bruce.

 

Yet another edit to add that over the last few years I've seen a few of these on eBay. I've not bothered to save those pictures or bid on the swords because I don't have a particular interest in them. Now though I wish I had saved the photos to share at least. It's getting interesting now! I can confirm that one sword at least was the exact same as mine with the cross-hatching, but was black.

[hobnails]

Hi Steve thanks for the quick response my mate's sword is signed by quite a good smith Ishido Teruhide with a two-character mei

although it's been much abused here is some more pics.

Chris H

[Shamsy]

Thanks for the extra pictures, Chris. I knew some of these were signed, though I was pretty sure one at least was by a group or organisation. Because I only have one, I couldn't exactly prove it. Wait a moment... let me see if I can find more pictures. I remember getting one more saved...

 

Yep, here it is! Sometimes I surprise myself with my memory. I can remember swords from several years ago but still cannot remember basic general knowledge. Just goes to show it's easy to learn something you enjoy.

 

I'll see what else I can drag up from my memory or archives.

[Kai-Gunto]

I dont believe these are navy.

[Shamsy]

Reason/evidence please?

 

Or other theories too. Conjecture is not particularly useful, but it is interesting to discuss what people think. I'm not sold on any particular theory without proof. The only thing I am sure of is that a number of these swords were constructed in a near identical manner, suggesting some sort of organised production of the fittings.

[Dave R]

This is the one from the cultural association, it's actually not that bad at all. There is more about in on this site somewhere......

[Shamsy]

Thank you, Dave! That was the post I remember. Not the same pattern then. That's a bit of a bummer, but at least that clears that up! Cheers mate

 

Photo of swords, just to see add to the discussion.

[Jareth]

Looking extremely close to that photo the majority of swords appear navy. I count roughly seventeen swords with plain features. But they are all identical with no variations and the handles are all wrapped! I don't believe any of the swords photographed above are the same. Maybe a few similarities but .....

[Bruce Pennington]

It is a challenging issue. Like Thomas, I at first felt these were made for full leather wrap/cover as the one in Dave's example, and were simply litterally last-ditch rinji-seishiki. Yet, when you read Nick's list of characteristics for the navy R-S, they sure seem to fit the bill. That one in Steve's post #2 even has a rising sun seppa! And as Steve has pointed out they are all made in the same manner (almost all). Now, that simply could mean a single shop was making these for the last ditch R-S, so of course they'd be similar. But Steve's last example was made in 1943 - not "last-ditch" at all. But if not "last-ditch", then why would Navy put out something, that compared to the standard kai, and even the Army R-S, is so UGLY? "Ugly" is usually associated with "last-ditch". Yet again, I go back to the Navy's list of characteristics ...

 

I don't know. It's a very interesting item.

[Dave R]

Looking extremely close to that photo the majority of swords appear navy. I count roughly seventeen swords with plain features. But they are all identical with no variations and the handles are all wrapped! I don't believe any of the swords photographed above are the same. Maybe a few similarities but .....

 

 The swords in that particular photo are all known to have been surrendered at a Naval base... to the 4th Marines in 1945.

[Dave R]

It amazes me that despite this being the very last ditch effort and the whole sword being quite crude there is still a level of careful refinement and quality to be seen. Not even modern martial arts swords that cost thousands have an overall fine shape to the Koshirae as this. This design reminds me of the test Tsuka the Yamada family used with metal bands used to reinforce the Tsuka.

 

 The metal band turns up quite often on Edo era Tsuka, when there is no same or ito. The rice glue used in woodwork was not trusted to be strong enough on its own.

[Shamsy]

I agree, Jareth. Definitely not the same swords in the picture, but similar. I thought similar enough to be interesting.

 

Quite a variety of blades found in these wooden mounts. Could be as simple as being made in the same shop, or could be something else. Not sure how successful this investigation will be, but this is enjoyable (I mean, this is what we're in the hobby for right?)

[Jareth]

Totally agree. I collect Japanese militaria (SNLF/paratroop) & I'm not well versed regarding swords. I'm a big fan of last ditch weaponry. Unlike the Germans there was very little uniformity in equipment & dress late in the war. This is clearly shown in photo of surrendering troops. I look forward to the possibility that there was a late war pattern navy sword rather than " cottage" industry assembly using leftover components

[Bruce Pennington]

Here is my sword, very similar to yours, but with a cross hatch and no paint, except on the tsuba (mostly gone).

Can anyone tell me what the painting on the tang reads? I assume just numbers.

Steve,

Got some help on your painted kanji:

 

"

拔五三マ

Nuku 53-ma

I'm fairly certain that kanji is 拔 -- but I'm not a native-reader and am looking at the kanji with "gaijin" eyes. If it is 拔:

 

拔 is a variant of 抜; both mean to extract; omit; pilfer; pull out; quote; remove.

 

The マ [ma] is probably a subset indicator (i.e. 拔53-L). I have no idea what the 拔 code means. Maybe this was just a code for assembling the furniture to the blade"

 

This came from Guy.

 

It's a puzzling one because, I'm sure you know already, painted stuff on nakago are, as far as I've ever seen, are just assembly numbers from the koshirae shops. This is more elaborate than normal. It makes me think someone was telling another worker "pull koshiare 53 マ for this one". But I'm purely pulling stuff out of my rear-end here.

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks for the extra pictures, Chris. I knew some of these were signed, though I was pretty sure one at least was by a group or organisation. Because I only have one, I couldn't exactly prove it. Wait a moment... let me see if I can find more pictures. I remember getting one more saved...

Yep, here it is! Sometimes I surprise myself with my memory. I can remember swords from several years ago but still cannot remember basic general knowledge. Just goes to show it's easy to learn something you enjoy.

I'll see what else I can drag up from my memory or archives.

Guy also wanted to pass on the translation of this one:

 

昭和十八年二月

Showa 18th Year, February

 

高正

Takamasa

 

According to Marcus Sesko's book:

TAKAMASA (高正), Shōwa (昭和, 1926-1989), Gifu – “Takamasa” (高正), real name Yasuda Yoshitarō (安田芳太郎), born April 7th 1912, he worked as guntō smith"

[Shamsy]

Thanks so much Bruce! Sounds like my painted kanji are a bit unusual, I'd assumed they were just numbers, not any kind of text.

[hobnails]

Hi Dave was wondering if the picture of the sword surrender at the Japanese naval  base was mainland

Japan or one of the islands in the pacific.

[Dave R]

...."The location of these photos was probably Yokosuka naval base. The 4th Marine Regiment landed on a beach near Yokosuka city and marched overland to occupy the base.

The older guy in the front with the necktie is wearing admirals rank insignia.".. Text copied from.. 

 

https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?498113-Sword-Capture-Pile-Japan-1945

 

You can see all the photo's there.

[Dave R]

 Thinking about these very simple mounts, makes me wonder if this is from one of that type.....

[Shamsy]

Is there brass underneath, Dave? I've only seen a couple in hand, but I think they're usually brass painted black. Otherwise, it does fit. I have other last ditch swords with plain iron tsuba though, which seems to be a logical choice.

[Dave R]

Plain iron or steel with an industrial finish, either oil quench or case hardened. The little punch chisel marks indicate that it was fitted to a blade at one point.

[Stegel]

I don't think these examples are the Rinji Spec swords.

Last Ditch yes.

 

The ones shown, and they come in black and brown, with plain tsuba, i would consider to be Army use.

The cross hatching can be found on both black and brown handles. Some are signed and some not.

 

The only 'Navy' one i have seen is pictured in the 2nd post and has the Rayed seppa in copper and brass tsuba.

[Shamsy]

Share your sword, Stegel? It was a nice example. Is it signed?

[IJASWORDS]

So here is an unusual one, similar in many respects to the sword in post #11. But in this example, mumei, the mune has been modified (filed down) to fit a hard wood handle. But in other respects, looks like a genuine late war Japanese made blade. There are 2 mekugi ana that fit the handle. Habaki is well made and perfect fit. The kabutogane and sarute look like the one in post #11. 

This is not a war time repair, in my opinion, as the rivet holes are small, made for this handle, and the corrosion is the same all over the nakago. Unless undrilled blanks were sent out to repair swords, or to make them in the field. 

The combat cover is machine made, not hand sewn by someone in a grass hut. Thoughts? 

[Shamsy]

It's doesn't conform with the homogeneous traits of the particular swords in question, but it does look rather well made. Collaboration sword, prison camp sword, souvenir, field made by the Japanese? It's just impossible to know really. It looks like a nice example of one of these swords though. Any idea at all the history?