shan Posted October 16, 2008 Report Posted October 16, 2008 Yep,guess theres no getting rid of me. Another aquisition that might be ok. I had this on a zero description and a very poor image.But i liked its shape. It looks old to me and has had a hard life. I cannot see any Geese ,ducks or things but perhaps you can and you may be able to tell me what school and period. Its another Keeper as i like the old iron ones more than the fancy stuff. I made a lightbox and tried to improve my photography of these items but i appear to have made it llook plastic or painted which it is not as far as i can see. It has Bones and folds and other attributes that seem to be desirable. Regards as always..... hopefully. shan
Brian Posted October 16, 2008 Report Posted October 16, 2008 Shan, Just after a quick and tired glance... Check inside the sukashi walls for any signs of a joint line. I am probably wrong, but it loos cast to me? Brian
shan Posted October 16, 2008 Author Report Posted October 16, 2008 Hi Brian, I had a look with the eyepeice and i cannot see those telltale ridges. I have been unfortunate in that i have "distance bought" 2 Tsuba now that i thought were cast as soon as i got them. THis one has rusted badly historically, then been cleaned and then aged again and been "polished"?. I`m 95% Its good, but i could still be wrong. What style and school could it be? regards shan
Bungo Posted October 17, 2008 Report Posted October 17, 2008 " Its another Keeper as i like the old iron ones more than the fancy stuff " ................................. if you like old iron as theme for your tsuba collection. Allow me to promote my wares............... viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3952 p.s. Der Despot, delete at will if you think this is inappropriate milt
Guido Posted October 17, 2008 Report Posted October 17, 2008 p.s. Der Despot, delete at will if you think this is inappropriateWhere would be the fun in deleting your post, and as a result of that depriving myself of the chance to make sarcastic remarks? As your friend George put it: you misunderestimated me! (But then again, it's always wise to watch over one's shoulder.)
Brian Posted October 17, 2008 Report Posted October 17, 2008 Milt, There's a new despot in town, and he ain't as harmless as the old one. Brian
Jacques Posted October 17, 2008 Report Posted October 17, 2008 Hi, That kind of comparison is not really friendly for the sharks
Bungo Posted October 17, 2008 Report Posted October 17, 2008 Milt, There's a new despot in town, and he ain't as harmless as the old one. Brian Hahhahaaaaa, just like Dick and George, who's the real boss ? No wonder my assignment next year is where they sent Capt. Hawkeye Pierce. The tradition lives on. for those who need the joke explained................. http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&i ... ages&gbv=2 milt
Ted Tenold Posted October 17, 2008 Report Posted October 17, 2008 I know that smile. That's a fine picture of you Guido. Too bad the divers got in the way.
Ford Hallam Posted October 17, 2008 Report Posted October 17, 2008 Hi Shan... how do I put this politely...nah...sorry, I don't think there really is a way ...Ford's capsule review...."it's a piece of Sh1T". No need to really try to decide whether it's cast or made by some other method, it's just really bad but your photography has clearly improved. the image is very good. It has been suggested I should explain why it's bad, the obvious answer is that it lacks any good qualities. Once you have a clear idea of what these "good" qualities are it will all become clear I say this to be kind...no... really :| If you intend to spend money on tsuba and are left believing that this sort of paperweight has any desirable attributes then I think, as a group, we have seriously failed you...and anyone else who might get the wrong idea as to what is desirable in these sorts of guard. The qualities that are admired in "old iron" are far more subtle and refined than merely gnarly old corrosion and crude workmanship. To be honest, it is probably one of the most esoteric aesthetics of Japanese metalwork and as such, is quite difficult to pick up on on-line. Dealers are rarely much help either, as there is a tendency occasionally, in my opinion, to hype any old piece of iron as though it was formed by Amatarasu herself. In terms of reference books to help you develop some sort of understanding of these I'd recommend the books by Masayuki Sasano. He provides decent images of good examples and does a fair job of trying to express something of why they are good examples. They're a bit pricey ( about $250 on average ) but not compared to the money you could waste on buying dodgy "look-a-likes" Another reference that I know many treat as their bible is "Tsuba- an aesthetic appreciation" by Torigoe and Haynes. Personally I find it to be a bit contradictory at times, the illustrations are fairly poor as they're photocopies, there are far too may technical errors regarding technique to make for comfortable reading (for me anyway) and there is actually almost no discussion of aesthetics at all....still, the title did sound promising The other big issue I have with the book is the overt bias of the author regarding his own taste, and presenting this as objective fact. I do find it of use at times but I think as a starter book it could seriously skew any chance of developing a balanced view of the subject. I hope you appreciate me writing all this....'cos I get the feeling this may be regarded as heresy.... ...hmmm, perhaps I should apply to the management for a post as "an upstart despot"... :D The forum could do with one. regards, Ford
shan Posted October 17, 2008 Author Report Posted October 17, 2008 Ford, There`s no need to "beat around the bush" just tell it like it is I thought it a bit poor but i thought i would just see for sure.(ever the optimist) Don`t panic i did not really intend to keep it,i don`t like the patina and feel of it. It was a gamble for £10 and thats probably £10 down the drain but.....whatever. My last Tsuba posting was £50 ish ($70 or so) Some you win...... I think my instincts will help me out when in doubt. many thanks for the redirection. regards shan
John A Stuart Posted October 17, 2008 Report Posted October 17, 2008 Hi shan, 10 knickers!! At least you have great optimism, can't beat that. You'll not get much at that price. Very rarely gold amongst dross. Maybe papered tsuba would be more satisfying to train the eye for the hidden jewel. Joss, John
shan Posted October 18, 2008 Author Report Posted October 18, 2008 Hi Jon, Papered...bah ....wheres the fun in that? How would i torment you all with my crap if i knew what it was? Honestly though,I am sorry to say that i am happy to start with the rubbish and work my way up. To go and just buy papered items would be rather uninteresting to me ,yes i might have an envyable collection but i would have paid top dollar for it.Is nihonto an investment....I think its an obsession for sure, but unless you buy a good valuable thing cheap you will never get your money back when its time to move it on. I think that there may still be something out there that "slipped through the net",so to speak.I`m going to "land that one"! Did i mention optimistic? AKA regards Shan
Ted Tenold Posted October 18, 2008 Report Posted October 18, 2008 Shan, this may be a bit harsh, but I can't stand idly by and read these things without a little "intervention". Even in the largest of jest there is often the finest of truth. How would i torment you all with my crap if i knew what it was? It's not so much torment as our frustration in watching you torture yourself.....and flush sterling down the lou. Honestly though,I am sorry to say that i am happy to start with the rubbish and work my way up. The next level above rubbish is junk, niether of which will educate you or leave you liquid to act upon something nice. I think that there may still be something out there that "slipped through the net",so to speak.I`m going to "land that one"! Yes there are, but no you won't, because your judgement will be clouded by rubbish and your decisions rationalized with advice from Polly Anna. You will not be able to recognize that sleeper piece if you don't know what masterpieces look like and you will not gain that knowledge acquiring by attrition. Did i mention optimistic? AKA I'd say enthusiatically foolish, but it's not too late. Save yourself!!
Bungo Posted October 18, 2008 Report Posted October 18, 2008 shan wrote: I think that there may still be something out there that "slipped through the net",so to speak.I`m going to "land that one"! Yes there are, but no you won't, because your judgement will be clouded by rubbish and your decisions rationalized with advice from Polly Anna. You will not be able to recognize that sleeper piece if you don't know what masterpieces look like and you will not gain that knowledge acquiring by attrition. ................................. Fat chance, not while I have my sniper rifle ready and have nothing better to do 24/7......... milt
Henry Wilson Posted October 18, 2008 Report Posted October 18, 2008 Shan Sorry to butt in but I have to 100 percent agree with Ted and Ford above. The tsuba posted at the top is really very very bad and I feel that nothing is going to learnt at all. You might be starting to turn people off as to be honest I have stopped reading through a lot of your posts. I don't want to sound mean, cold, a hard @ss or anything so all I can say is if you are spending money, I would spend it here http://www.finesword.co.jp/index.htm I think you would do a lot better for your money and might start to learn what quality looks like.
Bungo Posted October 18, 2008 Report Posted October 18, 2008 I understand you want to buy something cheap and then turn around selling it for a decent profit............... we all do that to finance our hobby to a certain extent ( unless one is independently wealthy and doesn't have to play the lowly merchant game ). But at least get something " decent ". I post 2 pics of a typical Shoami tsuba ( 3 inches across ) which i just " sniped ' at a good price and have every intention to use it as trade or sale later when the stock market calms down. If you have too many low end stuffs, it'll affect your other " better quality " items when time to sell them. You see, you may not want to be Neiman Marcus, but at least try to be Target and certainly NOT DOLLAR DAY . milt
Ford Hallam Posted October 18, 2008 Report Posted October 18, 2008 Shan, I'm relieved to see that you're hardy enough to take the pretty hard knocks this thread may have delivered but I'd point out that all the comments are essentially telling you the same thing. This is not to "have a go" at you but are genuine attempts to try to guide you to a more rewarding approach, both financially and in terms of the enjoyment you could gain from this hobby. Personally, I wouldn't put too much hope in uncovering a sleeper...it does happen, but rarely when taking a shotgun approach...ie; "if I spread my shot all over the place I'm bound to hit something" There are some very fine piece out there, and they needn't cost a mortgage. At the moment I think Owazamono has one of the best spreads of iron tsuba I've seen for a while on-line. I think the prices are very fair too, and the condition of the pieces are also very good. ( no...I don't get a commission either ; don't even know the seller) Go and give your eyes a treat and perhaps you'll begin to feel something a little more refined in response to "old iron" Regards, Ford
Guido Posted October 18, 2008 Report Posted October 18, 2008 I'm more into Kinkô, but if I would collect iron Tsuba I'd go for the Kanayama ("old iron") or Satsuma Naokiyo ("fine iron") as pictured below - both images come from http://www.tetsugendo.com. My motto: "Give a man a fish, and he will eat for one day. But if I inspire him by my opulent lifestyle and my squiring of super-models, he might try harder." I know, I'm a damn philanthropist - I can't stop giving, it's like a curse!
Ford Hallam Posted October 18, 2008 Report Posted October 18, 2008 hmmm....isn't that Kanayama one an early depiction of a "blitzkrieg" motif? as for your philosophy...I'm certainly inspired ...now where's my riding crop and my serving wenches? p.s. Milt...never thought I'd say this ...but I quite like that tsuba of yours...good shooting :D
Guido Posted October 18, 2008 Report Posted October 18, 2008 hmmm....isn't that Kanayama one an early depiction of a "blitzkrieg" motif? (This is going way , but I simply can't resist!) Probably, but unlike this Tsuba, the Blitzkrieg didn't work because "scissors beat paper"!
shan Posted October 18, 2008 Author Report Posted October 18, 2008 HI guys, Thank you all for your as usual refrained approach to remonstration. Don’t get too hung up on the posted tsuba,as I said ,I know it was poor but I thought perhaps to run it by you in case I had missed something subtle. I know that what I am offering up in general is fairly poor stuff compared to your items but to me some of it is nice. I am not a true Tosogu collector in that I am only after improving the fittings on my extant sword mounts. Essentially, I would love to have a quality Kamakura tsuba on a Kamakura blade, a quality early Edo tsuba on an early Edo blade. What I don’t want is a £2000 tsuba on a £1000 blade. I am trying to get 4-5 good sets of mounts for 4-5 good swords. Now, we all know that most swords & fittings are a mish mash made up for tourists to buy or WWII trophies and a lot of items we have, have had the good parts removed and replaced with less than average fittings. I see and hear of collectors doing it all the time when a sword gets moved on,("its an average sword but,i`ll remove those fantastic menuki and the nice tsuba and put in these poorly made ones before I sell it on") Its the same with everything else. So an Ikkanshi Tadatsuna could quite possibly be in some very nasty mounts with nasty fittings. My objective (if i have one) would be to buy a good sword in fairly good saya and a usable tsuka.then the rest is for me to find to make it what I want it to be. I can and have wrapped many of my own tsuka and though I say it myself I think they are good so I have no problems adapting tsuka to suit my needs. Perhaps this is the wrong approach and I hate to have to defend myself but i feel you all misjudge my intentions slightly. I know when an item is rubbish; I have, I believe, quite good instincts. Maybe not to the degree that hardened Tosogu collectors like yourselves might have but nonetheless useful. Now the tsuba that started all this, was part of a package deal that also supplied 2 tsuka, a tanto one with nice enough silver inlaid iron mounts and a (nasty) wakizashi one which was in black lacquered mounts and may be Satsuma rebellion and a nice patterned lacquer saya will little or no damages to speak of. The tsuka are handy to have and can be adapted to fit any blade I might buy.The saya, well I have many unmounted blades so always need them. OK the tsuba was a nasty piece and I should not have offered it up to you venerable gentlemen, but I was not SURE I had not missed something, so offer it I did. Maybe the deal was not all that great but I was happy enough with it. The small mounted boys wakizashi I posted a short while ago cost me £100.It was a “sleeper†I think that’s a bargain but then that’s because I like it. The tsuba that I last posted title “new acquisition for opinions please†is I think quite a nice Shoami tsuba for £55.Again that is now on mounts of a blade. I won’t go on and on about what I have that I like, I know its poorer quality than you are all used to. I know it is I who have asked you for help,so I thank you all for your views and opinions. perhaps i will be a little more selective about my requests in the future. Kindest Regards Shan
Brian Posted October 18, 2008 Report Posted October 18, 2008 Shan, We aren't trying to discourange the posting of lesser pieces at all, although we would certainly love to see more good stuff posted. There is always the chance some novice doesn't recognise a good Akasaka or Kanayama tsuba, so it is important for us to give advice on any tsuba posted. At the same time, it is valuable to constantly remind people of what to look for in tsuba, so that they can learn and recognise these themselves. In this case, yours was just the right timing and item for another general lesson. Glad to see you didn't take it badly, as that wasn't the intention. It is just a good (and often worth repeating) lesson so that everyone benefits when they see tsuba for sale. Hope everyone sees it for what it was, and doesn't take it as a lesson not to post anything they are unsure of. Gotta have a thick skin in this field, and judging by the way you took it, looks like you are doing ok Would love to see more honesty, less "subtle hints" and people not taking offense. That would be the best combination for decent educational discussion. Feel free to post anything you are unsure of, and of course we do hope to see some good stuff discussed often too. Reagrds, Brian
John A Stuart Posted October 18, 2008 Report Posted October 18, 2008 Hi shan, I do it myself sometimes as well. If I'm not sure about something, post it and let come what may. I have many items I'm not sure of. Even papered I can, at times, be dubious, but, bow to superior wisdom. The one thing I've learned for sure is 'Do not be impulsive'. Is this age or maturing taste? I don't know. I still think this is the best place on-line to learn about one's items and no one is out to stomp on sensitivities, I'm sure. John
Bungo Posted October 18, 2008 Report Posted October 18, 2008 " Feel free to post anything you are unsure of " sounds like a campaigne slogan, you running for office ? milt, that " often deleted/censored " one
Ted Tenold Posted October 18, 2008 Report Posted October 18, 2008 Shan, It's not that you shouldn't ask, nor that we mind helping. As a wee tyke, when I did something dumb, my mother would ask "Why did you let him do that?", and my father would say; "Well, some lessons are best learned the hardest way". Thus the comments posted are written with your best interest in mind. That's the purpose of the board and the intent of everyone who generously devotes time to it. Its the approach that you take to it that concerns me (as it probably does others as well). The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different outcome each time. The foundation of knowledge is based on learning from mistakes rather than trying to justify them. Get over them, move on and your knowledge base will expand at a more rapid rate. It's prudent to show things "just to make sure" but what I think everyone will agree is that it's far better to show something to others to *confirm* what you suspected rather than to be told what you knew you couldn't see to begin with. We should all want to guide and be guided, not just be told "this is bad, this is good". So, let me offer you this as a primer; A study of fittings or swords *begins* with the quality of materials from which they are made. In swords, the study begins with the quality of the steel. For iron tsuba, the quality of iron. For soft metal, the quality of the copper, brass, shakudo, etc.. Quality of material, skill of workmanship, age (period), condition, more or less in that order. What you really need is to get in front of some good pieces and *study* them, in hand, up close. Once you do that, you'll see junk for what it is, and more importantly be able to recognize the great pieces when you encounter them.
shan Posted October 18, 2008 Author Report Posted October 18, 2008 Hi Guys, All fair comments and taken as they are meant and instructional. Its an early period in my tosogu experience so bear with me,I promise it will not get worse (too often) and the quality should get better.kindest regards shan
Henry Wilson Posted October 18, 2008 Report Posted October 18, 2008 Rock and Roll!! A nice finish and absolutely no bad intentions meant on my part anyway.
Guido Posted October 20, 2008 Report Posted October 20, 2008 Rock and Roll!! A nice finish ...Fully agreed; and since Brian cropped this thread already, and I myself am guilty of going off topic, thus kind of *asking* for other o/t remarks, I'll lock this thread as well (the second one today, now I'm really getting extatic!).
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