would someone like to comment.thank you ?

[roger dundas]

  As per usual I would appreciate any and all comments members might like to offer .

 The first tsuba was the first I purchased but in fact is it a tsuba or just something that looks like a tsuba ?

It measures 73 x 73 and very thin at the edge, 5mm at the centre area.

Iron I presume, shakudo catfish and one gourd, silver the other.  It appears competently made to my eyes but I just don't know what to make of it.

 

The second tsuba is the last tsuba I purchased and I think it speaks for itself- I really like it.Am I correct : Saotome plate, later Kaga inlay.  Azuchi- Momoyama era.    8.8 x 7.76 x .38 in measurement.

 If someone wants to be harsh in their comments, I can wear it .

 

Roger d.

[Stephen]

Posted in wrong section.

Better help in Tosogu

[Ken-Hawaii]

Agree with Stephen that Mods should move.

 

What makes you think the first tsuba isn't real? Not high-quality, but looks okay to me.

 

Second tsuba is Heianjo.

[Tanto54]

Hi Roger,

 

The first tsuba has an interesting motif - Catfish (Namazu) and Gourd.  It comes from a Zen riddle of trying to catch a slippery catfish with a smooth gourd.  The image conjures up the idea of being slippery, elusive or overcoming an impossible task.

 

Here's a National Treasure Painting of the Subject:

 

 

 

Here's a Tsuba by Miyamoto Musashi of the Subject:

 

[roger dundas]

Thank you Stephen and Ken.  When my internet helper returns we will try to rectify the posting to Tosogu.

Ken, you asked why I wondered if the first tsuba was 'for real' was because I have not seen another similar or with such a finely finished edge to the mimi.

It doesn't appear to have been mounted so wondered if it wasn't quite modern and meant to be anything but a personal test piece. Glad to see you think it is legitimate. I had wondered if the plate had been turned up on a lathe ?

 

Roger d

[roger dundas]

Thanks for your comment too, George.   Is there some connection also with catfish and earthquakes ? I seem to recall something along that line.

 

 

Roger d.

[roger dundas]

My wife/adviser and I just don't know how to take this post from here to the Tosogu section.

Sorry about that and maybe it's time I left the field to the professionals and this bloke (me who is no mental greyhound), just retire to the bleachers.

You have given me a good run, certainly I have learned a lot and thank you all for your tolerance.

I'm actually not that super thick but with age things are a little slower to pick up.

I do actually come from the end of the horse and buggy era and sometimes hitched a lift to school with our neighbours kids, chalk and slates still in use- no bloody computers in my childhood but no doubt that would go for many here.

 Thanks again,

 

Roger d.

[Spartancrest]

Roger d. 

 

Seems like I am following you around the forums. There is a legend that a giant catfish causes earth quakes - from Wikipedia: "In Japanese mythology, the Namazu (鯰) or Ōnamazu (大鯰) is a giant catfish who causes earthquakes. He lives in the mud under the islands of Japan and is guarded by the god Kashima who restrains the catfish with a stone. When Kashima lets his guard fall, Namazu thrashes about, causing violent earthquakes".

 

Old, I can remember when the milkman came to the house with a horse cart and we got letters delivered twice a day. And don't get me started on the size of chocolate Wagon Wheels they were twice the size for 6 pence! I do laugh at the tech nerds who say without the internet we would go back to the stoneage- ever hear of the sixties and seventies, no computers, no internet, no mobile phones and Dad went off to work and mum stayed at home and everyone owned their own home. What went wrong?

[roger dundas]

It is really reassuring to read your posts Dale, I too recollect those times and also during the war with most of the grown men away in service and the milkman (woman in our case), the butcher, the baker, the greengrocer and the iceman all turning up in their horsedrawn wagons and the only nihonto and tosugo around was pretty much being wielded by a very aggressive enemy ( unknown to us at that time ). That's right, letters twice a day, food rationing and the women at home with their ears glued to the shortwave news service from London.

But in fact it was a breeze here in Australia compared to those poor buggars  who had the war stampede through their backyards in Europe and Asia.

Now back to tosogu which flooded out from Japan post war.

I will follow with fascination what else your sharp, analysing mind has discovered about the world of tsuba and possibly the degree of deceit involved in the mystique surrounding so much of this wonderful field of collecting.

 

Well done to you Dale,

 

Roger d

[Spartancrest]

 Here is a modern copy of the two catfish - it loses something in translation don't you think? That nakago-ana just isn't right!

[Tanto54]

Hi Dale,

 

Actually that's one catfish and one gourd instead of two fish.

 

Outlined (poorly...) the gourd in red:

 

[Tanto54]

Hi Roger,

 

In addition to the connection that Dale noted above (great story Dale!), the Japanese also believe that the Namazu can predict earthquakes.  I remember seeing one in a tank at the top of the Tokyo Tower (years ago), and its purpose was to warn visitors giving them time to get out of the tower before an earthquake hit.  In the case of your tsuba, because the Namazu is coupled with a gourd (or two), the meaning is the Zen Riddle that I mentioned instead of having to do with an earthquake.

[roger dundas]

I love the way these discussions develop with the cross fertilization that goes on and how memories get prodded and new information emerges.

Your Catfish and Gourd certainly fits the theme of all three tsuba George so once again thank you. And we know a lot more about Catfish and earthquakes thanks to you Dale and George.

 

Roger d

[Spartancrest]

George M. 

 

'Post in haste repent at leisure' I spotted that guard on fleabay - catfish - yes that fits the thread - post. Funny I took in the fake nakago-ana and missed the gourd, well it was way past my bed time when I posted it and that's my excuse. You would pass out if you saw the list price on it & its many companions!

[Ken-Hawaii]

Roger, it is up to the Mods, NMB's Administrators, to relocate posts to the appropriate thread - nothing that you can do.

 

No big worry. The only downside is that your post may not be noticed if it's in the wrong place.

[roger dundas]

Thank you for that Ken- I suppose we should have known that we couldn't repost the original but we didn't and of course it shouldn't have turned up where it did in the first place ( maybe it's not the first time I have messed up ?)

Not wanting to cause any further irritation to the NMB, I will just remain an onlooker if that is O.K ?

But as I repeat once more, it is such a great thing (having the time and the interest) to be able to have access to this wonderful NMB with it's great range of intelligent members, characters too.

 

Roger d.

[ROKUJURO]

Roger,

your entries cause a lot of interest and discussion, so why should you stop that? I have the feeling that "the wisdom of crowds" works well in our little community, and everybody can profit from that. At least it works for me!

Concerning your second TSUBA (HEIANJO), I want to add that it may be an early one. Reasoning for my impression is the very level HIRA-ZOGAN and the generally good condition of the inlays. The plate seems to have some age to it as well. Probably Ken Goldstein could give you more info as he is an expert with HEIANJO TSUBA.  Valuable general info also on: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/18119-heianjo-zogan-tsuba-serial-productioninfo/

[roger dundas]

Good day Jean and once again I am reassured by your input which seems to me to be always on the mark and well considered.

 

As for the Heianjo tsuba I haven't had it long but hoped it was an earlier piece so am pleased to read your assessment - thanks for that.

 

When I took the opportunity of joining the NMB and mentioned an interest in heianjo tsuba , Ken mentioned then that this was an area of collecting interest for him and I imagine he has many fine examples plus a deep knowledge also.

 

I have been trying to dig another word out of my brain to describe your NMB; it came and it is ...the" scholarship " that you members have and generously share !

 

Thanks again,

Roger d

[Bazza]

Roger,

 

your entries cause a lot of interest and discussion, so why should you stop that? I have the feeling that "the wisdom of crowds" works well in our little community, and everybody can profit from that. At least it works for me!

 

Concerning your second TSUBA (HEIANJO), I want to add that it may be an early one. Reasoning for my impression is the very level HIRA-ZOGAN and the generally good condition of the inlays. The plate seems to have some age to it as well. Probably Ken Goldstein could give you more info as he is an expert with HEIANJO TSUBA.  Valuable general info also on: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/18119-heianjo-zogan-tsuba-serial-productioninfo/

Gee Jean C, if I ever knew of Ken's HEIANJO TSUBA link I had forgotten all about it.  I enjoyed the read/re-read and I think I can truly say that NMB is the place where there is more "forgotten knowledge" than many of us know about...  Sadly, I can't spend all of my waking hours here, though I think my Better Half wishes I would surface for a breath of "outside" life more often...

 

BaZZa.

[ROKUJURO]

......Sadly, I can't spend all of my waking hours here, though I think my Better Half wishes I would surface for a breath of "outside" life more often...

 

BaZZa.

If our 24 hours daytime aren't enough, why don't we use the night time in addition? 

[Brian]

Jean, how many hours in your day?

[ROKUJURO]

Well, we are technically in advance to most regions of the world......(that is why I set the   . It is one of my old Dad jokes)

[roger dundas]

  Noting your comment Jean, about Ken Goldstein being an expert on Heianjo tsuba with a collection to match can I appeal to Ken here to offer some of his knowledge and 'best of' in his collection ?

 This possibly is a clumsy way to broach the subject but I assume I wouldn't be the only one who would look forward to such information.

  Can I ask you for that Ken ? I really am wary about being out of order here and mean no offence if that is the case.

 

Thank you,

Roger D

[Bazza]

Roger mate, if you use the Search window at the top rhs of the screen and type in heianjo and press the magnifying glass symbol you will have TONS of information and discussions on such tsuba.

 

Best regards,

BaZZa.

[roger dundas]

Thank you for that BaZZa and thank you for taking me through it. 

Quite wonderful.

 

 

All the best to all,

Roger D.

[ROKUJURO]

  ..... can I appeal to Ken here to offer some of his knowledge and 'best of' in his collection ?.....

See post # 15 in this thread. I am sure he will not bite you! 

[roger dundas]

My photographer wife wasn't happy with the original pics with this post and thought they didn't do justice to the tsuba.

She has taken some others hoping to improve on the originals.

Let's see.

Roger D

[Bugyotsuji]

Both good tsuba, and good shots of them! 

[roger dundas]

Just checked again to see the improvements to the pics and we found your response Piers. Thanks for your comment and it added to the pleasure of her mother's day.

Well done.

 

Roger d