A bad case of the Measles or the dreaded Nie?

[SSt]

Hi All

I have a tsuba that appears to have a bad case of the measles, or perhaps even a bad case of the NIE.

 

Dealers description ;

"Owari Arrow Sukashi Tsuba

This tsuba has very nice, bold and even granular tekkotsu giving it a soft and even dark brown-black iron patina.

There are also some small nodules of larger tekkotsu in the rim as well. (1 o'clock Obverse)

There is a small lamination separation on the face of the seppa dai which shows that this tsuba was folded. (10:30 Reverse)

Dimensions: 7.0 cm x 6.85 cm x 0.25 cm at seppa dai and 0.5 cm at mimi

Momoyama – Early Edo Period"

 

The true colour of the iron is relected in the first picture

(1-Owari Yabane Mimi True Color.jpg)

As can be seen on the Obverse-Reverse montage the ji is quite rough, a combination of granular tokketsu and pitting (very old corrosion).

(2-Owari Yabane Obverse-Reverse R.jpg).

 

What was not mentioned by the dealer was the presence of nie. To be more precise ;

ARA-NIE, i.e. large coarse nie or possibly KAZUNOKO (especially large nie)

 

N.B., I use the term nie in regards to this tsuba based upon the following definition;

The Connoisseurs Book of Japanese Swords, Kokan Nagayama, Page 91, Nie and Nioi.

"Nie is the term used or individual particles that look like twinkling stars and that may be discerned wit the naked eye."

And further on;

"Nie and nioi are terms for two different instances of the crystalline effect known as martensite in Western metallurgical terms.

Other terms such as austensite, pearlite, and troostite are also used for this phenomenon, but for our purpose these are all fundamentally the same.

Nie is the term used for individual particles that look like twinkling stars and that may be discerned by the naked eye."

And a little further on;

"Other types - not considered particularly desirable (on blades) - include kazunoko ("herring roe") nie (especially large and partially scattered particle) ..."

 

I have attempted to photograph these nie clusters, I trust that you can discern the shiny "spots".

These pictures are "washed-out" to help illustrate the NIE,

(3-Owari Yabane Mimi.jpg)

And these pictures are closer to the actual ji color

(4-Owari Yabane Mimi.jpg)

Under natural light, and especially strong sunlight, these nie appear as large black sparkling spots.

They are located only on the outer edge of the mimi, and the large clusters illustrated appear mostly, but not exclusively, between approx 4 and 9 o'clock.

 

I suspect that the type of mimi may be a clue as to what occured in the creation of the nie.

The tsuba plate was fashioned from folded iron, the sukashi were cut and filed out and then the mimi hammered into shape.

The formation of the Uchikaeshi mimi (Hineri Mimi) probably required a relatively soft iron that could be easily worked (hammering out the 'lips' and folding them back)

Once the desired shape was achieved the tsubako then heat-quenched (Yakiire process) the finished item to both harden and preserve his handiwork and the nie was thus created.

 

Any and all thoughts or comments welcome.

[drbvac]

Well there is no doubt that certain impurities or rather other metals in the iron mixture will oxidize in different ways and show the uneven surface textures that result with other than iron oxidation. I am not sure that this is the same as the inclusion and appearance of Nie and Nioe particles present on a blade that come out when polished and ahve never "rusted". That said why is it the "dreaded nie"? I think it reflects the age and the fact that the smelting and processing are not perfect and in some instances entirely expected depending on the age and storage of the Tsuba.

 

I think it looks pretty good!

[Ford Hallam]

Japanese authorities have never used the terms "nie" or "nioi" in relation the tsuba and I don't think we should either. The likelihood of these very delicate details being evident in a rust based patina seems to me very unlikely. These effects are only visible on blades as a result of the vey careful polishing techniques that were developed to show exactly these details.

 

As it's obvious the only way they could be discerned on a patinated tsuba would be if they were physically prominent, like little bumps. The whole surface of a tsuba can be covered in all sorts of minor lumps and bumps of rust and simple textures from corrosion and hammering etc, speculating on the possible presence of nie in those sorts of conditions does seem a bit unnecessary.

 

It also pre-supposes that the tsuba was heat treated in a similar way to the edge of a blade. As we know, only the edge was that hard ( that it would show nie and nioi) and the rest of the steel was kept somewhat softer for reasons of toughness and resilience. Those two attributes are far more desirable, I would have thought, in a tsuba so I see no reason for tsuba to be hardened like blades, quite the opposite. It would also probably require a better grade of steel which again would be a waste of time and resources.

 

Regards,

 

Ford

 

he he, I just saw my "ranking"....heretic ...cheers Brian, I love it

[SSt]

Ford

While I respect your technical abilities to create/copy/mimic tsuba, I find your reasoning in this instance unconvincing.

 

In regards to "nie or nioi in relation the tsuba" you may wish to consult this tread. http://www.nihontokanjipages.com/forum/ ... .php?id=35

At the foot of this particular page you will find;

"What I could not capture in the pictures is the sparkling "NIOI-like" effect when handling the piece in (sun)light. This is quite astonishing ;o)" - Richard Turner

It would seem that I am not the first to observe this phenomenon on an early iron tsuba.

(To the best of my knowledge Richard Turner is not Japanese, but I think its fair to say that he is something of an "Western" authority)

So I think using the term in relation to tsuba is valid.

 

Which begs the question, If it is not nie (KAZUNOKO) on this particular piece, what is it?

The "spots" in question are visible from many angles, "minor lumps and bumps of rust and simple textures from corrosion and hammering etc" does not explain what has happened here.

The outer edge of the mimi has the same texture, color, rust etc... as the rest of the tsuba, yet is the only place where these "spots" occur.

 

The tsuba-ko who fashioned this piece worked the edges of the plate out into thin lips and then hammered then back over the plate to form the mimi.

A relatively soft/malleable iron would have been required/desirable for him to be able to work the metal, would it not?

A final hardening of the mimi to preserve this labor intensive handiwork would make also sense.

Perhaps the earlier pieces (Tosho, Katchushi, and early sukashi) were all hardened, whereas the later pieces were not.

(Which may help explain their purplish/black color)

Later tsuba were manufactured with a thicker plate, which was not hardened but still offered a similar level of protection.

Dr. Kazutaro Torigoye offered the opinion that the very earliest tosho tsuba were approx. 2mm thick, those made later were always thicker, i.e. 2.5mm +

He felt that Katchushi tsuba underwent a similar evolution, becoming thicker in later years.

 

Perhaps It became cost effective in subsequent years not to harden the finished item, instead they used used more iron and less labor, thus avoiding your "waste of time and resources".

 

One of the latter stages in the manufacture of swords, Kissaki-hizukuri, is the "clipping" off of the end of the tsunobe to create the kissaki.

Could it be that these clipped off pieces were used in the manufacture of early tsuba.

Would heat treating a plate made from such "scraps" that had already undergone significant hammering and folding, produce nie?

If so, it still would not explain why they only appear on the outer edge, "where the rubber meets the road".

 

Attached are close-ups of the "lips", notice the areas of corrosion/texture, with absolutely no sign of "nie" or "spots"?

 

Take Care

[Pete Klein]

Yeah -- Rich, You're my Hero!

[Rich T]

Yeah -- Rich, You're my Hero!

 

Thank Pete, the wine is in the mail (this smiley is called FREAK by the way)

 

So, to clarify SSt (is there a real name in there somewhere ?) I did not write that, at the top of each block of text in the kantei which was posted over from the old forum, is the authors name, in this case, Mr Martin Hellmann, a member here also, and it was Martin who made those observations, not me. Also, he says is has a Nioi like appearance, not that he thinks it's nioi, a bit of a difference. My signature at the bottom is just attached to the bottom of the thread. That's why it is there.

 

And on a personal note, I am no expert, just a student with some web skills. I never claim to be an authority on anything and probably never will.

 

As to nioi in tsuba, well I wonder how many people have easily spotted Nioi and Nie in an old rusty unpolished sword ??? I have never seen it in a tsuba, and I agree it would be tough to spot on the best of days with 300 + years of corrosion and patina, let alone lacquer, grime and all the rest of life's buildups over it. But a question to Ford if he is about, If nioi did exist, and I am thinking it would only become visible if the tsuba were polished/cleaned, could it not come from a sword that failed in manufacture and was re smelted into other things ? (showing my lack of knowledge on sword manufacture here)

 

cheers

 

Rich

[Pete Klein]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martensite

 

Enjoy the read.

[Ford Hallam]

I bow to your astute and profound metallurgical understanding, Steve as far as I'm concerned you're entitled to your own opinion...however you choose to validate it. At this point the difficulty I would have in arguing my point further with you is the fact that you don't seem to really understand metalwork technology, so my "explanation" is bound to be unconvincing ...as far as you're concerned I might just be making this stuff up to mess with your head ....and who knows, maybe I am

 

As a technical aside, Owari guards don't usually have raised rims and if the guard is made of iron, as you describe, then no hardening would be possible anyway.

 

My reply was not only offered to you but to the general membership of the forum. Perhaps they will be more convinced Actually your argument reminds me of a similar one UFO fans offer. "if it's not an alien flying saucer then what else could it be?" :D . I find that the most reasonable answer, in the absence of any definitive proof, is the safest bet. In terms of your hypothesis I'd suggest the onus is on you to convince us :|

 

...and now that you've discovered nie on your tsuba it would probably be worth having a good look for utsuri too

 

btw, I know Eric Knowles...and he was happy to pay me for quality work that wasn't cheap :D .

 

Regards, Ford

 

just seen your post, Richard ...so in reply

 

Nie and nioi are micro-crystalline structures that occur as a consequence of the heat treatment of the edge of blades. The quality of the steel is obviously a prerequisite, to a certain extent, but this sort of structure ( martensite crystals) essentially dissolves when steel is annealed or normalised to soften it, and make it workable. The point being, even if you made a tsuba from an old sword you'd have to re-harden it once it was shaped, to reform matensite ( nie, nioi...they are the same thing, the only difference is in size which is a factor of the length of time of heating). The main objection to there being nioi present in a tsuba, whether visible or not, would be the practicality of having a guard that hard....we all know sword blade edges chip, would you want to have a tsuba ( something that is bound to get a few bumps at least ) hardened to that extent? I doubt it myself and on a sukashi tsuba like an Owari guard I think it a even more unlikely.

[Bungo]

" And on a personal note, I am no expert, just a student with some web skills. I never claim to be an authority on anything and probably never will. "

...................................

 

Heavens !! Quoting Der despot from the Northern Capitol, you going to issue Opinion Papers ?

 

 

On a serious note, you have come a long way since we know each other and you have left this child ( that's me ) behind.

 

p.s. I hope no one need me to explain the joke about No Child Left behind.

 

Milt

[Ford Hallam]

I hope no one need me to explain the joke about No Child Left behind.

 

only if you misunderestimate us

[John A Stuart]

Hi All, We must remember that steel is an alloy. Iron and carbon (in this context and for simplicities sake). Like all alloys it can be manipulated by various physical processes, heat, (quenching, annealing etc.), working it (hammering) or chemically through infusion (case hardening) or addition (various alloys produced). Steel when subjected to specific types of heat manipulation can produce crystalline structures that are visible, but, generally need grinding, polishing and etching to be visible even under magnification. When a single piece is differentially hardened the interface between the two matrices can make these crystalline structures more apparent, but, still must be polished to observe. These structures may exist in tsuba that have undergone quenching from a specific temperature but unless highly polished would not be visible although in the matrix. Deterioration or the forging process would be a more likely reason for the surface characteristics as above. No nie or nioi would be so visible and/or tactilely evident. John

[Rich T]

" Heavens !! Quoting Der despot from the Northern Capitol, you going to issue Opinion Papers ? Milt

 

Hi mate, LOL, who is from the Northern Capitol, that's the bit that confused me ??????? (remember it is just after 6am here) The only papers I am likely to issue come in small white squares :-)

 

So Milt, did we have a child ?, I must have been drunk that night, I hope it looks like me................

 

hahahahahaha

 

Rich

[Bungo]

we are getting seriously here............

 

Regarding the Three amigo's ( aka moderator/censor/despot )............. there's " that one " that......

 

Back to nioi/nie on tsuba........

May be the original writer meant " the effect " of light reflection off the tsuba surafce that reminds one of nioi/nie on na sword ?

If Ted the other despot received my tosho tsuba for the message board lottery, may be he can take better pics. That tsuba does reflect light at certain angle that gives the impression of a misty sheen.

 

milt

[SSt]

Hmm, where to start?

 

Rich,

apologies if I took your name in vain, I evidently misread the post. (Perhaps it was the shock of being put in my place by Ford, that threw me off.).

Belated thanks to a "Mr Martin Hellmann".

 

 

Ford,

"Owari guards don't usually have raised rims" - re-read the post - the dealer (Boris Markhasin) who purveyed it described it as Owari.

Although I have never seen another Owari piece with this type of mimi, I bow to his superior knowledge.

 

"if the guard is made of iron, as you describe, then no hardening would be possible anyway" - Why not?

As you well know, the term "iron" when describing tsuba, actually means "steel".

And of course steel can be hardened, normalized, tempered, etc..etc... http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/ ... ening.html

Are there not different degrees of hardness available to a skilled metalworker? I really do not understand the point that you are trying to make.

 

-----

 

So lets start again ;

 

I have a iron (a.k.a. steel) tsuba, the dealer (Boris Markhasin) who purveyed it described it as Owari, the iron is very dense black/dark brown color, it exhibits nie "like" qualities on the "road edge" of the mimi, the pics tell all.

 

The tsuba, whilst in my care, has been periodically gently rubbed (polished?) with a pure cotton terry cloth.

 

Notwithstanding the 300 year old "black rust" patina and old corrosion, something (approx 1mm in size) in singles and clumps, glitters and sparkles, it only does so in a specific area, it is easily observed with the naked eye.

 

Pedantic semantics aside, can anyone tell me what it is we can see here? Is it nie? Is it martensite, austensite, pearlite, or troostite.

 

Or is it something completely different?

 

Is it possible that many years ago the tsuba was in a house/dwelling fire. Would this help explain the formation of the "nie like" spots or even the level of corrosion?

 

Is it animal, vegetable, or mineral? or to paraphrase Ford, "if it's not an alien flying saucer then what the heck is it?"

 

 

Given my location seeking a hands-on second opinion is difficult to say the least, perhaps it would be worth mailing it to someone better qualified to help explain this phenomenon?

 

Thanks.

[Bungo]

" Notwithstanding the 300 year old "black rust" patina and old corrosion, something (approx 1mm in size) in singles and clumps, glitters and sparkles, it only does so in a specific area, it is easily observed with the naked eye."

 

1. just plain rust ( use ivory/sharp bone chip and see it can be " flick off " )

2. " granular " type iron bones

3. U-BLO ( un-identified black lumpy object )

 

milt

[John A Stuart]

Hi Steve, The build up of the black iron oxide on your tsuba and subsequent pitting may explain the crystalline facets reflecting light. Fe3O4 crystallises in the isometric form (cubic-octohedrons, rombododecahedrons etc.) and although usually fairly dull can be metallic in lustre and quite reflective. These crystals are within the spinel group, gemstone type. This may be the source of the shiny flashes. What do you think? John

[Ford Hallam]

Morning Steve,

 

I'll try to clarify...

 

The formation of the Uchikaeshi mimi (Hineri Mimi) probably required a relatively soft iron that could be easily worked (hammering out the 'lips' and folding them back)

You seemed to be describing a raised and folded-over rim ...which your Owari tsuba most certainly does not have. [ Uchi-keashi-mimi ; Rim hammered to flip over. this definition from the Boston Museum catalogue glossary by Morihiro Ogawa ] Uchi-kaeshi literally means hammered ( or struck) return, the meanig being fairly clear, I think.

 

So your speculation of the properties of the steel are based, in this instance, on a process that wasn't used.

"if the guard is made of iron, as you describe, then no hardening would be possible anyway" - Why not

because iron does not contain any carbon, which is need to harden the metal...but I think we've covered that bit of confusion.

 

I don't know if you've read this thread but as you'll see, there has not always been consensus on the matter of iron versus steel so I couldn't be sure of you're implied meaning at all. You may want to follow the link Mike provided, to Boris' thesis on the matter too, seeing as you acquired the guard from him in the first place.

 

The possibility that the nie, and the required hardening, might have come about due to a house fire is also a bit unlikely. This is one of the usual ways in which swords actually lose their hamon. If you'd taken the time to read the article Pete linked to you'd have learned that martensite forms when the steel is rapidly cooled from a high temperature. Typically, swords, and we may assume tsuba too, that were in fires would have cooled slowly, in fact perfect conditions to obtain the maximum softness.

 

Anyway, I hope that enough has been written here to get us away from the improbable notion of nie in tsuba. I think John's suggestion regarding the "crystalline facets reflecting light" is in fact a very plausible one and adequately describes what you may be seeing.

 

Personally, I believe that if someone is going to make exceptional claims in this field, and let's face it...after a few hundred years of connoisseurship for nie to be " suddenly" discovered in a tsuba patina is a bit like suggesting the earth is the centre of our solar system after all , this is going to require exceptional evidence

 

Good topic though...and one that needed to be aired.

 

regards, Ford

 

p.s. If you want to post the tsuba to me for a closer look....I've got a microscope , I can pm you my address.

[Brian]

I knew the issue of nie/nioi on tsuba was a contentious subject, but who knew plates would fly around the kitchen because of it? :lol:

Ok..calm folks. Interesting debate (can we keep it a debate?) and an interesting read. I am of the shared opinion that nie/nioi does not exist on tsuba, and if it was ever there, would not be visible due to the patina that tsuba have in any case. Anyone want to send their tosho tsuba to a togishi for polishing? :D

If it was a valid factor in tsuba, it would have been written about multiple times in old Japanese references, and would be a kantei point. Now there might be effects that might look like shining nie/nioi, but to call them that I think is misleading faced with the overwhelming facts presented. However a discussion of what they could be is interesting and educational. Perhaps Rich could ask Gordon Robson or one of the Japanese tsuba experts their views on this phenomenon, and whether it is even a factor in anything?

I think a bit of asking around at the DTI might also be enlightening.

How about everyone subjects themselves to a bit of tempering and quenching, guys....your nie is showing.

 

Brian

[Martin]

May be the original writer meant " the effect " of light reflection off the tsuba surface that reminds one of nioi on a sword ?

 

Well here is the original writer... :D

I did not at all want to imply, that I observed Nioi on my Tsuba....

It was - just as Milt said - a comparison of the sparkling effect this Tsuba shows in sunlight.

 

IMO Fords remarks are most convincing, reflect the opinions of nearly all Tsuba collectors and don´t need any further questioning.

[Ford Hallam]

Cheers Martin :D ..your cheque's in the post

[remzy]

I was left with the impression that Nie was a term that refered to a steel crystal type occuring when hardening is taking place. Because if not, i got Nie on my skin!

[Ford Hallam]

i got Nie on my skin!

 

nah! ...that's probably herpes

[Guido]

Since becoming a mod on NMB, I always wanted to lock a thread (deleting Milt's posts somehow doesn't count). Thank you all for making my dream come true!