Tosa Kuni Ju Myochin Munetoshi update

[Spartancrest]

A fake alert, expensive all too common reproduction.  https://www.jauce.com/auction/r430397513

These are very well made and the iroe is often very well done but there is no inlay and the colour is only applied as a surface coating, The sekigane and ategane are simulated. Other versions have no iroe, the tegane-ato marks around the nakago-ana are always identical [though some are more 'crisp' than others]

[Exclus1ve]

It's an old but interesting topic. In Moscow, this quality of tsuba is being sold only now by 3 sellers. More than $1,000 for each one. I believe that they were produced at the end of the 20th century - the beginning of the 21st. I compared them thoroughly, the differences in relief are minimal. Obviously, they were manually modified after casting to make them different from each other. The sellers claim that these are copies of the 19th century. Who is closer to the truth? 

№1

 

№2

 

 

[ROKUJURO]

In my opinion not made for real use. The decoration is partly on the SEPPA-DAI. Recently made with modern technology, avoiding some mistakes of the past, but still fakes.

[Spartancrest]

Viktor - very very interesting, I have been following these "reproductions", "fakes" or "souvenirs" for more than ten years now and you have surprised me with a "new" one.

[Same tagane-ato over and over again - it is the obvious area to check and it is a wonder it hasn't been altered in a better attempt to avoid scrutiny]

 The signature has been REPLACED on this fellow. It stands out very obvious against the polished back area of the seppa-dai which no longer has the same texture to the rest of the surface. Unfortunately the person smoothed off the end of the sekigane, back to the base metal under the paint layer -

A good try but they  --         

[Exclus1ve]

So I can't find at least one reason why it was done in the 19th century) The quality of fakes is only increasing over time. In this case, all the same cast copies, and then they were given to a person for manual revision. However, this remains just a "coloring book".

[Spartancrest]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/405493486504  One listed here for US $1,135.25  [The site may be legitimate]

 

Same exact guard, same images used but - DO NOT BUY FROM THIS SITE  https://shopforsale.ru/product/326326781344  Suspected scam.

 

In fact do not buy any of these!

 

https://www.bonhams.com/auction/18307/lot/6093/a-nagatsune-tsuba-by-minamoto-nagatsune-edo-period-19th-century/

https://buyee.jp/item/jdirectitems/auction/r1000252521?lang=en

[Jesta]

Given that some tsuba were mass-produced in the Edo or early Meiji periods, is there a consensus on what qualifies as a “fake”? Is there a cutoff date that is generally agreed up as the point at which authentic becomes fake? 

I know that some modern tsuba are still being made, and may be collectible in their own right, but I am referring to purported antiques. 

[Spartancrest]

  On 4/9/2025 at 12:39 AM, Jesta said:

purported antiques

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We are somewhat stuck with the definition of "Antique" = An object, often a collectible, that is at least 100 years old, prized for its age, beauty, rarity, craftsmanship, or historical significance. 

So we are stuck with anything over a hundred years old, but we have the choice to define what is beauty, rarity, craftsmanship or historical significance? I won't say most fakes are rare, have beauty or show any particular craftsmanship - but they may well have historical significance simply because they show a time when anything Japanese was all the rage - modern fakes are not antiques, but they may become that in another hundred years if we don't have the sense to 1. Stop the  manufacture of landfill  & 2. Make better use of energy and metals! Just an opinion.

[Jesta]

  On 4/9/2025 at 1:16 AM, Spartancrest said:

So we are stuck with anything over a hundred years old, but we have the choice to define what is beauty, rarity, craftsmanship or historical significance? I won't say most fakes are rare, have beauty or show any particular craftsmanship

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Thank you. I find your work in this area incredibly useful because I get so much education from reading the descriptions, and looking at the pictures.

 

For my own collecting, I am back to exploring the concept of “fake”. 

I can certainly say agree something can be old, and yet be judged to be without much merit in terms of its rarity, craftsmanship, etc, but then it is down to an informed judgement about what appeals or not. So, when an Edo period tsuba is mass-produced I would tend to say that it is not a “fake” but it might not be considered as desirable as something that was handmade and largely unique (although the concept of “unique” is a hard one to nail down since themes and styles were much copied during the Edo period…).

This makes starting a collection pretty hard, especially when pieces are sometimes described as “fake” with little real clarity on how they are labelled like that. Which is why I appreciate your detailed work so much… 

 

(this is off the top of my head, so take it for what it is worth)

I wonder if a possible way would be to create a taxonomy to help new/existing collectors understand how things might be perceived by the wider community. Something like this:

 

Main families

• Edo period
• Meiji period
• Modern

Sub-categories

• Deliberate attempt to deceive (gimei, modern copies, etc)
• Handmade
• Mass-produced
• Created for use
• Created for art
• Created for sale to “tourists"

 

 Artistic merit, perceived craftsmanship quality would have to be a personal judgement, I think, with value determined by a willingness to buy it at the price offered. 

 

On a personal note, I have started to record the provenance of items that I buy, if there is any. This is (much like in the fine art world) to help provide a paper trail for the items to help future collectors know at the very least how long this piece has been in the hands of other collectors, or passed through auction houses etc. 

[Spartancrest]

  On 4/9/2025 at 1:40 AM, Jesta said:

provide a paper trail for the items to help future collectors know at the very least how long this piece has been in the hands of other collectors

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That is great idea and will no doubt be of immense merit to future collectors. 

 

As to the taxonomy I was going to try building a reference of known cast or "replica" pieces - the trouble seems to be that examples keep turning up making a comprehensive record next to impossible. For instance I started a record of Utsushi pieces that now makes up a book of 274 pages - and that is based on only about twelve basic designs! I am not talking about 274 examples but at least five times that number of individual pieces. Try the math 12 designs = at least 1,370 copies, times the number of known "common" designs and your guess is as good as mine. I still keep the book "open" adding utsushi when I find them. But it will never truly end. [a friend S.King did warn me!]

[Jesta]

  On 4/9/2025 at 4:28 AM, Spartancrest said:

I still keep the book "open" adding utsushi when I find them. But it will never truly end. [a friend S.King did warn me!]

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I believe Quixotic might be a good term 

 

Something that is done from time to time on the board might be valuable if it was collated is to provide a list of red flags, with examples, for people to look out for. This is something that you do here for individual pieces (and in your books). Rather than try to find all the examples of all the fakes it might be better to find examples of the all the typical features that fakes tend to have. With the understanding that not all fakes will have all, or even any of them, and some real tsuba might have one or two. But… if a piece has too many red flags then probably better to walk away… 

[Steves87]

Dale's Utsushi book really is an important collation of Tsuba information. I realise there is no way for a published version, and this is a proper shame for the community.