Tosa Kuni Ju Myochin Munetoshi update

[Spartancrest]

George M. 

 

Menuki are not my thing - but have certainly seen many that look alike to me, there are also a lot of fuchi that turn up, not the obvious Chinese fakes and modern sword shop manufacturers but once again looking ubu but there are just too many of the same design and not utsushi because they are too much alike. 

 

Namban: don't get me started. 

I have a page layout from my book here, its a bit blurry because of the way I copied it, I have retyped my comments in the lower right corner, it should be noted that a lot of copies have also included tagane-ato imprints in the casting and not added by a chisel so dont try to adjust in this way you will only get a broken replica! Also I have some examples of one of the most common namban dragon cast copies.[The pages have the alternative spelling of nanban.]

 

As well you may not like the other composite picture that shows a range of copies that are very common - and some adorn the collections in the worlds best Museums.

 

There are also copies done in soft metals that are also common.

[Tanto54]

Outstanding Dale!  Thank you again.  Can you offer more about how you believe the molding and casting were/are done?  The many fake gold menuki that I referred to appear to be made using wax-injected, vulcanized rubber molding combined with the lost wax method of casting (and that combo has only been available for about the last 40 years or so).  I believe that some of the newer fake tsuba are being made that way too.  I'm guessing that the older fakes are probably sand casting and the better, "middle period" and newer ones are "green sand casting".  I personally think that the Kinko copies with all the added "iroe" are from the last 40 years and are not Meji, Taisho or early 1900's (don't remember ever seeing them in the US or Japan before the last few decades).

[Spartancrest]

I am unsure of the production methods, some of the castings are very detailed and I would think lost wax method unlikely. When did injection molding of iron start? There are some copies that look stamped out like coins, this is not some backyard operation it is high tech factory production. I know a lot of Kinai school pieces were production line produced copies of famous designs. I think that the majority of iron copies are older than 40 years - examples in 19th century collections are evident.

I did just purchase some obvious repro menuki (Gold as it happens). That I intended to use as decoration on my tsuba display boards, they are still on their way. Paid 1,000 yen about $12, the seller must have heaps he sells them in batch lots!

[Spartancrest]

Grev. 

 

"Hi Dale

The link is a description not place to buy the V2"

 

You will get me into trouble if you want to buy a V2 - I understand they were not very popular about 70 years ago! 

[vajo]

Nonsense.

 

If you like to burn your stuff - do it.

 

No picture!

[Steves87]

Hi Dale,

Regarding your commonly cast Nanban pages, I have this example which I'm fond of (even though the patina is a little hit and miss) as it appears to be chiseled and has actual button inlay (eyes). Ive looked for a few years and I have not been able to find another similar. I suspect this is a relatively new Tsuba example.

would love to know what you think,

apologies if this is not the time or place for this, I can pm if better

 

edit:

Chris, your post wasnt there when I was typing, that is amazing!

[Spartancrest]

Chris S. & Stephen K.

 

Well they look like a much better guard in this design than average, obvious fine carving but what worries me Chris is the chip on the top, a casting spill  bottom right and the fact it has no evidence of being mounted. Comparing yours and Stephen's you can see they have differences in the inner ring of 'petals' or ornament. Stephen's likewise shows no evidence of having been mounted, it too has fine carving and the eyes as he says look like inlay,also the 'seppa-dai' is finer. What I can't decide is if the beading is faulty or has suffered bad corrosion. From the pictures I can't tell if the beading on Stephen's is hemispherical or just curved in one direction.

Don't shoot the messenger, but that cast over-run at the bottom does not bode well, as I think I may have said before a lot of cast guards were reworked (Izarae) to bring out the finer detail. If indeed Chris's guard is Hizen then the Hizen school must have done some casting. I can only go on what I see, to prove my observations check the comparative pics of both guards and the highlighted areas.

 

Sorry but you did ask.

[Spartancrest]

George M. 

 

Just getting back to you, I have found a picture of a rather too common fuchi with kabuto decoration, I know its common because I had one just the same (for the life of me can't find it though) So there was/is a huge industry pushing out copies of all sorts of fittings and no doubt the sword collectors will include swords as well - just who when and where I don't know - the why is always money!

[vajo]

Your discussuion becomes a problem because your meaning influence the objective view. I didnt take part on that nonsense.

[Steves87]

I can confirm bad corrosion and if I understand correctly, I think the beading is just curved and not hemispherical.

 

Dale, I really enjoy your books and comparison pictures, thank you very much for your work

[Spartancrest]

Chris S. 

 

The patina is good and even, I like it for what it is. Have you any idea how the tiny punch dots got there around the seppa-dai and the bottom cross shapes? They are something different, can't work out what that means. Was the finisher doodling with his tools or did it happen much later?

[vajo]

I don't know Dale.

 

But you are total wrong!

[Spartancrest]

Stephen K.

 

If I don't offend Chris, I think apart from the corrosion your piece was better. Can't do much about past damage and no matter what we do at some time in the far future all our loved items will be piles of rust - just that we will get there first!

My wife would not agree that it is 'work', more an obsession, that if she let me, would consume most of my day! [Don't know if I have mentioned it earlier but I am 'High functioning Aspergers' - always wanted a label! Social distancing is my way of life, this Covid-19 lock down is my everday. But my brain still works and as such I made up my own saying ' Aspergers means I am not handicapped by being normal.']

[vajo]

Dale your thread is nice to sharpen the mind. But i think you are going in to see some ghosts and miss the clear view on things. No offend to you, only a try to give you a path. Don't try to find out only the bad ones. 

[Spartancrest]

Chris. S.

 

I don't think it was machined - it is a complex construction and really we don't have all the answers as to how they were made. Can you imagine the results Europeans would have come up with, molding iron in such fine detail, it isn't easy [just check out cast iron furniture, its not art work!].

[Spartancrest]

Chris S. 

 

You are right, not here to discredit - I would not have stayed a collector for so long if I didn't see the beauty in it. If we knew it all why are we here? Proud to say not an expert just observant.

[vajo]

Dale in my family are a lot of iron workers. My father was 40 years in the development high speed spindle. We can't imagine how many possibilities there are to refine steel and cast iron. And there are millions of quality differences. And when i see a giant cast steel gun like the dora 80 cm, i think if you want to do something right, you find a way to do it. 

 

The worst thing to judge a tsuba is to look if it was mounted or not. In hundreds of years we can not know what was happened in the history of a piece. It was very easy in the Japanese sword "industrie" to re-patinate fittings. Much cheaper for the owner than to buy it newly made.

 

In the case of my namban i think it was new patinated after a long use.

[Steves87]

Dale, maybe that is why I can relate to you and your work, my eldest boy has a high diagnosis of Autism, although not quite the same, I've got a front row seat to a talented mind as your own

[Spartancrest]

Stephen K. 

 

Like it or not - Everyone is on the 'spectrum' the only thing is most people don't know it - it's called being human.

 

Knew this subject (thread) would not make everyone happy - " You can't tell a Mother her child is ugly."   My own collection has quiet a few "Elephant Man" ugly pieces but I love them just the same and they all have a history, checkered or not.

[roger dundas]

Absolutely wonderful to follow this discussion- and what an eye opener it is, so congratulations to all, particularly and especially Dale. 

And yes, it would have been a long, chilly swim in very turbulent waters (Bass Strait) using a steady dog paddle.

 

 

Roger d

[Tanto54]

Dear Chris, I have to agree with Dale that it looks like your tsuba was cast or "drop forged" (not hand forged and the sukashi were cast in or made by a mold).  I think the "dots" are porosity/casting bubbles, and I think Dale is correct about the other details that he points out indicating casting.

[vajo]

No George you are wrong. Discuss what you like, I'm out.

[Spartancrest]

Well back to the thread,

Now these examples below are a slightly different problem. The Kinai school seems to have ended its days by students churning out copies of that schools classic designs and we are left to determine if the resultant horde of guards were originals, copies or castings. Many of the Aoi leaf designs were embelished with gold scrolls or tendrils and signed by various masters. However even some cast examples were reworked and many of the signatures were faked. By the way there are copies of this design being factory produced as we speak. I do not contend that all these images are of fakes or copies but it is very difficult to judge just from an image on an auction site, so particular attention to detail is necessary to avoid buying a dud. I just checked a Japanese auction site that I look at regularly and noticed that three guards of this design were listed just today. The image below is only about a quarter of the examples I have on record - so many in fact I have given up collecting anymore images of these. I bought one myself rather cheap and rusty likely a copy never mounted but don't believe it is cast. - My house has tiled floors so if I drop it maybe it will survive, not sure I want to find out though!

[Ken-Hawaii]

Very useful thread, Dale. Glad you're taking us along for the ride.

[Spartancrest]

Posted 09 April 2020 - 08:53 PM

George M. 

[Just getting back to you, I have found a picture of a rather too common fuchi with kabuto decoration, I know its common because I had one just the same (for the life of me can't find it though) So there was/is a huge industry pushing out copies of all sorts of fittings and no doubt the sword collectors will include swords as well - just who when and where I don't know - the why is always money!]

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Just come across another example of the common fuchi pattern on Feabay- I do hope it doesn't belong to a NMB member.

 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Antique-Japanese-Fuchi-Kabuto-Kuwagata-Sword-Fitting-Tsuka-Handle-Koshirae-Old/254566280821?hash=item3b45552e75:g:-E4AAOSwfaZZuK2S

 

it is not identical but there is a definite trend here.

[Brian]

Just beware not to start giving the impression that any of the same designs must be repro or cast or copies. The schools had pattern books, and mass production of fittings was a valid and known thing.
So you really have to examine each item for signs of casting or identical flaws. Same designs can still be perfectly valid.

[Spartancrest]

Brian

 

True.

[Tanto54]

Here are some leftovers/rejects/partially finished fake tsuba that are being sold on Yahoo Japan right now.  One of them is the same model that Dale has been following and he posted an excellent photo comparison page above (and reproduced below).  These are clearly modern fakes/reproductions and are not antique or vintage school copies or utsushi.  You can see the flash from the molding process.  As Dale points out, these could be from a reproduction display and are now being sold as "tosogu" on Yahoo Japan.

 

Dale's Page:

 

From Yahoo Japan:

 

 

 

 

[Spartancrest]

George M 

 

What fascinates me is the range in quality of these fakes, they range from beautifully detailed with great iroe (though no inlay) to others so coarse that the features are almost totally lost. The same applies with the 'geisha pulling the tongue of the monster' examples, as well as the 'Oni and Futen'. Both appear in large numbers and no doubt other examples apply. I am aware that many fakes/ copies were made for glass cased sale items but I don't know if they were intended as domestic decoration in Japan or purely for export.

It is an interesting side to serious collecting - I fear for novice collectors.

[Spartancrest]

To prove the case that these things are still being made and the sellers are not reluctant to sell in batch lots, check these 'Drink - coaster' quality repro's

https://www.jauce.com/auction/u351947663