DirkO Posted October 14, 2008 Report Posted October 14, 2008 Hi, I'm trying to translate this uramei (comes from a Naomichi wak): My guess : SHO-?-SADA-CHU-ZO/TSUKU-TO I'm not bad at kanji, but this uramei is written rather shallow and the kanji have way too many strokes for me to make an educated guess... Any help or pointers would be greatly appreciated ! Quote
Nobody Posted October 15, 2008 Report Posted October 15, 2008 That is really a tough inscription. :? I cannot understand its meaning, though I know those kanji. 生é›å®Œæ —é‘¯é€ ä¹‹ However, I could be wrong about the 5th kanji. Quote
Jacques Posted October 15, 2008 Report Posted October 15, 2008 Hi, I think it speaks about steel (Nanban?) but i can't be more accurate Quote
Markus Posted October 15, 2008 Report Posted October 15, 2008 There is a slightly other interpretation of the 3rd and 4th kanji mentioned in "Sakutô no dentô-gihô" (作刀ã®ä¼çµ±æŠ€æ³•, page 3-34): å®ç²Ÿ Which read as "Shiso". A brief translation of the text (it refers to a ken by Ômi no Kami Hisamichi) reads: "He made swords just by the use of high-quality steel which came from Shiso district of Harima province. For tantô, ken, or yari, inserting a shingane is not absolutely necessary. This ken was made from so-called ´Shiso-gane´, which is steel of the supremest quality and which he proudly states via the signature." Quote
DirkO Posted October 15, 2008 Author Report Posted October 15, 2008 First of all : thanks for your efforts !!! I already thought this was a tough nut to crack hmm seeing this smith was quite good and also known under another name, this could be right (the steel of supremest purity bit). Can anyone tell me the hiragana and the literal translation? I'm following Japanese courses, but didn't get as far as kanji yet Domo arrigato gozaimasu ! Quote
Markus Posted October 15, 2008 Report Posted October 15, 2008 Can anyone tell me the hiragana and the literal translation? My final interpretation/try for this one is: 生éœå®ç²Ÿéµé€ 之 "nama-gitae Shiso-gane tsukuru kore" Whereas "nama-gitae" (lit. "purely forged") refers IMHO to that fact that the forging was done just by the use of Shiso-gane. Quote
DirkO Posted October 15, 2008 Author Report Posted October 15, 2008 I'm still a beginning nihon-to student, but what I understand from this is, that this Shisogane was something special. I can't find any other reference to it, except yours. The use of Shiso-gane was so special that the smith actually thought it important enough to engrave in his creation. Now why is this ? I know they sometimes enscribed the use of Nanbantetsu, because it was different from what they used to forge with. Was the ore from Shiso district special/different in any way ? Can anyone tell me something more about this "shiso-gane" ? @ Markus : again for your help. I was helpless when it came to these kanji Quote
Jacques Posted October 15, 2008 Report Posted October 15, 2008 Hi, I've found some thing in my library. This is a wakizashi made by Hisamichi, the last column on right reads: Sôkura Jotetsu o motte muku kore o tsukuru According the author (Kataoka Ginsaku) It means "using the superior steel of Sôkura made this with purity". å®Œæ — would mean Sôkura. Quote
sencho Posted October 15, 2008 Report Posted October 15, 2008 The third and fourth character is in my opinion definitely 完 and æ — as Moriyama san says. I would suggest that å® and 粟 is out of the question based on the 'hand writing' character on the nakano.... cheers Quote
Nobody Posted October 15, 2008 Report Posted October 15, 2008 The kanji on the nakago surely look like 完 and æ —. :? However; it is also true that there is a place name å®ç²Ÿ (Shiso) in Harima province (= Hyogo-ken) and that was a famous source of steel for swords. Quote
Markus Posted October 15, 2008 Report Posted October 15, 2008 The third and fourth character is in my opinion definitely 完 and æ — as Moriyama san says. I would suggest that å® and 粟 is out of the question based on the 'hand writing' character on the nakano.... cheers Yes, the written characters on the nakago look like 完 and æ — to me. I just cited how Suzuzki Takuo stated them in his "Sakutô no dentô-gihô", trying to bring more info to solve this problem. Also the Tokubetsu-hozon papers of this ken write "å®Œæ —" in the quotation of the mei. @Jacques Seems that Hisamichi was particularly fond of this kind of steel I made a quick search for the spelling, and I think it should read "Shiso". (http://www.city.shiso.lg.jp/) Present-day Shiso City is located what was once Harima Province. Although it would be interesting why Kataoka read it as "Sôkura". In my opinion, it is likely that the characters for this location could be written either with å®ç²Ÿ or å®Œæ — in those days. Quote
sencho Posted October 15, 2008 Report Posted October 15, 2008 In my opinion, it is likely that the characters for this location could be written either with å®ç²Ÿ or å®Œæ — in those days. I don't believe so, but I could be entirely wrong.... cheers Quote
Jacques Posted October 16, 2008 Report Posted October 16, 2008 Hi, Looking at the oshigata i posted, it is clearly 完 About Sôkura meaning, i wonder if it could be a chinese term. Quote
Nobody Posted October 16, 2008 Report Posted October 16, 2008 In my opinion, it is likely that the characters for this location could be written either with å®ç²Ÿ or å®Œæ — in those days. Maybe you are right. The following table shows old place names in Heian, Kamakura, Edo period, and the present day (from left to right). According to the table, å®ç²Ÿ and 完粟 are both used until Edo period. http://homepage2.nifty.com/toka3aki/geo ... html#ken28 Quote
sencho Posted October 16, 2008 Report Posted October 16, 2008 I stand well corrected.... :D good post Markus and thanks Moriyama san!! Cheers! Quote
DirkO Posted October 17, 2008 Author Report Posted October 17, 2008 I think we can put this to rest Thank you all for a vivid discussion and some very interesting findings Quote
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