Samurai Cavalry etc

[Bugyotsuji]

Some good horse sense... I like it. :lol:

 

An eternal conundrum for the smith. How to get it right, how to find the perfect balance? Reputation being everything.

 

Appease the gods, keep your eyes and ears open for battlefield feedback, then rely on your craftsmen forebears, and your own life force, wit & skill.

[Bugyotsuji]

Hesitating to write this, but something I heard on Saturday changed my thinking on the spear tip hardness/softness issue.

 

We were all standing around at the foot of the castle walls waiting to be called for the matchlock display, and admiring each other's armor/armour, as one does in such situations.

 

A chap called Kurimoto from Shikoku was saying that after the advent of guns on the battlefield, the largest number of wounds and injuries was from musket bullets, followed by spear thrusts. Katana cuts and arrow wounds followed but were in the minority, he was saying. He then asked where we thought was the weakest point in Japanese armor/armour, ie where the troops went for with their spears?

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

He then asked where we thought was the weakest point in Japanese armor/armour, ie where the troops went for with their spears?

 

Ashigaru to ashigaru ? I would say face/throat and left shoulder/armpit/side of the trunk.

 

I'm impressed in thinking how you can sew back together the borders of the wound

(to help it healing) with the triangular section a yari usually gives.

[Bugyotsuji]

OK, well, or even ashigaru to "ashi-omo"!* :lol: What he said was that they were encouraged to go straight for the eyes. Straight through into the brain, I presume. They would rush forward with their heads/helmet visors facing down and thrust upwards with their spears.

 

(Someone also mentioned at a different time that the spear tips were stuck into the ground first and dirtied to encourage festering of the wound, but this could well have been a world-wide practice.)

 

*Thinking about this the other day. We get a lot of requests to join Daimyo Gyoretsu parades, but we tend to refuse because walking long distances in full armour/armor kills the back, feet and legs. Imagine wearing a 30 kg suitcase on your back for two hours or more as you wave and blow kisses to the crowd. Not to mention the pistol and long gun you are carrying. The private Samurai would be heavy infantry and must have had support in the form of a groom and horse to carry and help with the equipment; the Ashigaru were light and nimble and could be ordered to run around the battlefield a bit, I imagine.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

(Someone also mentioned at a different time that the spear tips were stuck into the ground first and dirtied to encourage festering of the wound, but this could well have been a world-wide practice.)

 

...especially for archers. Horse drops were preferred to put the point of the weapons in.

In some way they realized the amount of dangerous bacteria present there.

 

We get a lot of requests to join Daimyo Gyoretsu parades, but we tend to refuse because walking long distances in full armour/armor kills the back, feet and legs.

 

Yours, but horse's ones too.

That's because cavalry charges as seen in "The last Samurai" never happened in Samurai History.

[Jacques]

hi,

 

We get a lot of requests to join Daimyo Gyoretsu parades, but we tend to refuse because walking long distances in full armour/armor kills the back, feet and legs.

 

 

Long march was usual for the soldiers during sengoku jidai. As the preparation for the battle needs several days, soldiers and horses could take some rest.

 

Yours, but horse's ones too.

That's because cavalry charges as seen in "The last Samurai" never happened in Samurai History.

 

Are you sure Carlo?

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Jacques, maybe the horses could manage little charges or spurts forwards, as in your picture, but surely not prolonged drawn-out classical cavalry charges.

 

Perhaps the heavy Samurai pulled hand-carts (リアーカー "rear carts") with their armour/armor aboard when travelling, and they had a special boy to help them out?

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Are you sure Carlo?

 

 

Absolutely sure Jacques.

 

You can see the retainers very close on horsemen even in your late period print.

Old scrolls are more accurate as historical sources.

 

It was tested recently with breeds used in the Sengoku and the horse (with armored Samurai

on) was barely able to surpass the speed of a running Ashigaru, and not for long.

 

Several hundred horsemen charging with no support as at Balaklava (and as "The Last

Samurai") is out of discussion in historical Japan. if any similiarity has to be choosen,

Moghul elephants supported by pikemen and misketeers are a closer match (as far as tactics

goes).

[Brian]

Knowing Carlo's passion for studying Japanese and Samurai history itself, I would be the last one to argue with those points

 

Brian

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

The horse museum of Japan has interesting studies about the matter,

as well as living specimen of nearly exctinct breeds once used for transport and the ones

for mounted combat.

Even if of mongol origin, the difference between the two cavalries was in the number.

Mongol were able to change horse much more frequently (they had plenty of supply).

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

I have some knowledge (i learn it since some decades) in Japanese history and i must disagree.

 

Cavalry charges were used in Japanese battles, the most famous is at Nagashino in 1575 were Takeda Katsuyori was discomfited by Oda nobunaga.

 

Takeda opened the attack with the old-style order of battle: four waves of mounted warriors charged one after the other against the defences erected by Nobunaga . They were all destroyed before they reached his front line. Nobunaga had set up wooden palisades in a zig-zag pattern, of a height which horses could not overleap. Takeda's cavaliers were brought up short against this obstacle and were shot down from behind it by some 3,000 foot soldiers armed with muskets. Every successive charge of the Takeda warriors was repulsed with heavy losses, while the defenders suffered hardly a scratch. (Sir George Sansom, A History of Japan 1334-1615, p. 287.)

 

 

I would say that cavalry charge was the speciality of Takeda Shingen. He vanquished at the battle of Mikata ga Hara (1572) on account of it. Takeda army was nicknamed kiba gundan (騎馬è»å›£

(mounted army).

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

I have some knowledge (i learn it since some decades) in Japanese history and i must disagree.

 

Jacques, with such a great experience you should know that the therm "cavalry charge" has

different meanings in different contexts (Balaklava/Nagashino).

 

Obviously I bow to your superior experience in the matter and I stop this off-topic discussion.

 

I don't address you to specific fora discussing the matter as I know in advance it's

useless.

[Brian]

Since this is no longer Nihonto related, I have moved it to its own post.

Are we all going to debate the meaning of specific words again, or can we have a decent and civil discussion on the use of horses by the Samurai and to what extent "charges' took place? I know I am interested in film myth vs reality.

Carlo, I'm sure the rest of us would like to read those resources if possible.

 

Brian

[IanB]

All, A critical factor at Nagashino was the presence of a stream / drainage ditch (clearly visible on the Nagashino screens). The Oda / Tokugawa lines were positioned some 50 / 60m away from it giving the gunners every opportunity to pick off targets as the horsemen slowed down to cross it. Those who managed to get as far as the palisades were held at bay by ashigaru with long yari thrust through the barriers whilst others with shorter spears, and presumably swords, swarmed around and killed them.

As for the discomfort of armour, if it fits correctly, it isn't too bad. In Europe the well off were very particular in having their armours carefully fitted. If my memory serves, it was Philip II of Spain who allowed one of his armourers, brought in from Germany, to watch him in his bedroom so that he could observe the way the emperor held his head and neck. Issued armour was obviously not fitted to any individual, but the wearers overcame this problem by exchanging pieces between themselves. We have evidence of this in three armours bought for the retainers of the Von Trapp family at Churburg. The armours were bought in Nuremberg and the parts of each set were numbered. They were later swapped around and each retainer wrote his name on each part. Needless to say the numbers and names do not correspond. I would imagine exactly the same happened in Japan, although of course most of the parts of a Japanese armour are far less critical when it comes to fit. The use of renjaku-do in which internal cords pass over the shoulders was almost certainly designed to alleviate some of the fit problem. By tightening the cords, the shoulder straps of the do were lifted off the shoulders whilst the pressure of the lower edge was taken off the hips.

Ian Bottomley

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

All, A critical factor at Nagashino was the presence of a stream / drainage ditch (clearly visible on the Nagashino screens). The Oda / Tokugawa lines were positioned some 50 / 60m away from it giving the gunners every opportunity to pick off targets as the horsemen slowed down to cross it. Those who managed to get as far as the palisades were held at bay by ashigaru with long yari thrust through the barriers whilst others with shorter spears, and presumably swords, swarmed around and killed them.

 

Hi Ian. I would highlight, also, that Nagashino is too often thinked of only as a cavalry versus

muskets battle, when it obviously wasn't. The same slaughtering happend to the

cavalry-supporting Takeda units and infantry as well and for the same reasons.

 

The proximity of the two lines (total around 100 m or so) gives the idea of how close you had

to go before "charging" with cavalry units.

 

As for the discomfort of armour, if it fits correctly, it isn't too bad.

 

Guess discomfort it's a matter of training.

In Japan some Samurai were trained even to swing in armor.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

A good history of the battle of Nagashino. History is history.

 

http://samurai-archives.com/ban.html

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

History is history.

 

Exactly. Where, in the link you provide, is described the way Samurai cavalry worked

as a squadron of european cavalry with the same tactics and without infantry support ?

 

Let focus on the operating way of mounted Samurai.

 

If I'm right, the debated started on *how* Samurai charged (with or without support) not

*where* or *when*.

[Brian]

The misunderstanding came in when talking about whether cavalry charges happened at all or not.

The clarification as shown, is that short charges happened, but with ground support and not for hundreds of meters on their own like Western cavalry as shown in the "last Samurai" movie. Do I get that right? The definition of "cavalry" here is of course a loose one, and can't be taken as literally as we know it in Europe. Mounted horsemen? Mounted samurai?

There. Now there is no misunderstanding and we can get back to discussing tactics and facts.

 

Brian

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Brian,

 

A cavalry charge needs a relatively long distance to be effective. Several hundred horses can't move in a pocket handkerchief they need distance to take speed. I'm a horseman and i understand why.

 

My horse:

 

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

The misunderstanding came in when talking about whether cavalry charges happened at all or not.

The clarification as shown, is that short charges happened, but with ground support and not for hundreds of meters on their own like Western cavalry as shown in the "last Samurai" movie. Do I get that right? The definition of "cavalry" here is of course a loose one, and can't be taken as literally as we know it in Europe. Mounted horsemen? Mounted samurai?

There. Now there is no misunderstanding and we can get back to discussing tactics and facts.

 

Brian

 

You hit the nail on the head, under my point of view.

 

They relied on the "momentum", the impact the line of cavalrymen had on enemies line,

and quickly the oncoming support infantry acted in the break to sustain the now stopped

cavalry and to take advantage of the caos. THIS is what Nobunaga was able to avoid at

Nagashino with stakes and a very wise choose of terrain, and what really doomed Takeda

army. Both cavalry and supporting units were slowed down and slaughtered not only by

muskets but also by spearmen and, well, some sniping archer too.

 

Mounted Samurai in scouting or arassing fleeing enemies were let unattended for obvious

reasons, but not the same when attacking an enemy formation.

Encircling actions to attack enemies flanks were coordinated with infantry to avoid to have

the cavalry to fight alone, timing was wisely calculated.

 

There is nothing similar to western squadrons, trained in the hundred and together, in Samurai

warfare simply because Samurai armies were provided on a feudal basis and even in battle

Daimyo preferred to have direct control of all their units. Not a definitive rule, but very often.

See the switching to one part to another of whole armies that so often happened

(Sekigahara teaches).

II Naomasa mounted Red Devils counted in the dozens, not the thousands.

Still acting with support were able to perform legendary actions.

The "Seven Spears of Shizugatake" were... *seven*. Is that a charge ?

 

The Kiso and other Japanese breeds can't sustain long runs as the arab-based breeds, even if

Takeda's horses were the excellence, possibly because of imbreeding with

chinese-provenance Fergana and (supposedly) Nanban horses.

 

Good fighting horses were *hard* to achieve, maintain, train and replace in Japan.

Sometimes I think a whealty samurai would have preferred to lose a kerai or two instead of

his preferred warhorse.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

My horse:

 

 

 

Is it a Japanese horse and do you mount it in ful armor ?

[Guido]

Guys, don't make me use this: