Got Bit by a Fake 98

[Bruce Pennington]

My foray into buying/selling is coming with the expected learning curve experiences. Bought a set of 4 gunto at an auction site (one that I like and trust, though their clientele tend to drive the prices to the top of the market).

The one that looked like, in the single photo, a civil sword remounted in combat saya - turned out to be a pure fake. GRRRRrrrrr! The Type 95, Type 8, and Type 19 are legit (I'll post the kyu on Kyu Corner soon!)

 

After chatting with their Customer service rep, she pointed out that the label of the items all included the words "samurai style". It's a phrase used by her staff if they don't really know if it's legit or not. She assured me I am free to request more photos on items in the future that I want more info on, and gave me a $100 credit to my account. SO, I'll take a hit on that one. Hopefully I can sell it cheap as a "Wall Hanger" and cut my loss a tad.

 

Interesting stamp on the nakago, though, that I'm pretty sure I've seen recently on another fake posted on the forum. Must be the same Chinese shop.

[Dave R]

 Ouch, you have my sympathy.

[vajo]

Hey Bruce sometimes you win, sometimes you loose - thats called life 

[dwmc]

OK, I get ! The auction site representative made an acceptable credit to your account. However, I still find it a bit disturbing a reputable auction site hides a horrible Chinese fake amongst legitimate items...Questionable tactics to say the least !!

 

Dave M.

 

[Ganko]

Best to have return privileges, but still "buyer beware". Sometimes, you have to take a chance and go with your gut feeling.

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 3/28/2020 at 6:15 PM, dwmc said:

OK, I get ! The auction site representative made an acceptable credit to your account. However, I still find it a bit disturbing a reputable auction site hides a horrible Chinese fake amongst legitimate items...Questionable tactics to say the least !!

 

Dave M.

Dave,

I don't think they sell that way, though, I really don't know. I assume the items are sold by the way they were acquired. Some auctions are on commision, some are estate purchases.

[Stephen]

I have a gunto koshirae that needs a steel tsunagi...but i doubt you can get much for them fittings.

[16k]

Oh my god that tang! Did their dog play with it?

 

BTW, this sword is interesting because it shows one of the sure ways to know whether the blade is Japanese or Chinese(that is, if the rest isn’t obvious): the ha machi and mune machi don’t line up. They almost never do because their Habaki aren’t made the Japanese way and are cast, not folded and welded.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Might make a good gift to a friend who knows little about swords and wants something to display.

[Bruce Pennington]

Sold the blade & habaki today, thanks for the suggestions guys! I'll post the koshirae along with a lone leather cover (that I know is legit) in the For Sale Section tomorrow.

[reeder]

It happens from time to time when you buy groups of swords. The saya and tsuka don’t look good either.

[Smee78]

Wow Bruce, sorry to hear ya got faked. Glad you were able to get some what of a deal worked out. I cant wait to see the good ones you did get. Thanks for sharing your lesson with us. I know I'm still learning a lot, even from mistakes of others.

[Bruce Pennington]

Ron, I mentioned the Type 8 and Type 19 on the Kyu Corner thread. The set also came with a Type 95 that I want to look over before posting, just haven't had the chance yet.

 

I have a nice Mantetsu I'm posting today in the For Sale section, and have another Mantetsu coming in the mail, a '39 Koa Isshin.

[Mister Gunto]

Yikes! That tang!

 

Still, at least it sounds like you were able to get something back on it. 

[Stephen]

Yes that tang.

Day one, a bit less wanky. First day of pickling.

 

 

PS Bruce it's a perfect it. Thanks for outstanding packing. Id never question a high end buy from you.

[Bruce Pennington]

Stephen, that's great, I'm glad!

 

I sure wish I knew the thread where a similar blade was posted with that exact same stamp!!!

[Dave R]

  On 4/1/2020 at 10:23 PM, Stephen said:

Yes that tang.

Day one, a bit less wanky. First day of pickling.

 

post-3487-0-99265700-1585416703~2.jpeg20200401_171432~2.jpg

 

PS Bruce it's a perfect it. Thanks for outstanding packing. Id never question a high end buy from you.

 

 

 Just to help you avoid future embarrassment in the UK "Wank" has a very specific meaning!  Wonky is probably the word you were looking for.

[Stephen]

Well im not in UK...lol. So dont be a wanker mate.

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 4/2/2020 at 10:37 AM, Stephen said:

Well im not in UK...lol. So dont be a wanker mate.

Ha????

 

We do have a similar sentiment: “all d - -ked up”.

[Bruce Pennington]

I recently wrote to Rock Island Auctions to let them know a post-war Toyokawa souvenir gunto they were selling was not a IJA military sword. Their response:

 

"Good Afternoon Mr. Pennington,

 

Thank you so much for reaching out to us here at Rock Island Auction Company. Our describer team has reviewed your email and have provided me with the following response.

 

Basic research does indicate that Toyokawa continued making non-traditional swords in the occupation era chiefly for consumption by the U.S. post exchange system. This is the "pattern" of the sword - it is not listed original. It is a Shin Gunto Pattern Japanese Sword.

 

If I can be of any further assistance, please do not hesitate to reach back out.

 

 

Sincerely,

 

Alexandria NM. Andrews

 

Customer Service Representative | Rock Island Auction Company | website: www.rockislandauction.com

phone: 800-238-8022 | fax: 309-797-1655 | email: Aandrews@rockislandauction.com

7819 42nd Street West, Rock Island, IL 61201"

 

Incredible. So as long as they put "Pattern" or "Style" in the title, they think it's Ok to call it anything they want to to mislead the unsuspecting buyer.

 

As always "Buyer Beware".

[vajo]

Haha Bruce..

 

Shin Gunto Pattern Japanese Sword.   

 

In German it means: "Schienbein Gunto Muster Japan Schwert." (google translation)

 

Its like you describe that 

 

 

Italien Sportscar Pattern Ferrari

 

 

[dwmc]

The only proper use of the word "Pattern" I can see regarding this auction company is a "Pattern of deception".

 

Dave M.

[Jean]

If you see the words « style/pattern », flee. It means the object is not « genuine ».

 

if asking question to the Auction house, you must ask if it is a « genuine samurai sword », otherwise no guarantee.

 

in the same manner, you have « signed xxxxx » and « signed by xxxxx »

[Kolekt-To]

Another apparent Post-war souvenir sword that just sold on eBay. It was described as a Naval sword, but doesn't appear to be a true Type 97 Kai Gunto. Note the single hanger saya, the lack of sunburst style seppas, etc. At least the buyer didn't pay $2K for it. There's another one like it up for auction (paired with a Type 98) on Invaluable, currently. 

 https://www.ebay.com/itm/255018150256?nma=true&si=55hPC0IF5TtGkTk6J7rhWqZnewc%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 6/25/2021 at 5:53 PM, Kolekt-To said:

Post-war souvenir sword

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Thanks Geoff.  Yes, you're right on this one.  Too bad.  The buyer paid $1,100 for a sword that normally goes for $450.

 

I've emailed the auction house on the one you mentioned being sold as "Navy" with another gunto.

[Kiipu]

  On 3/28/2020 at 5:31 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

The one that looked like, in the single photo, a civil sword remounted in combat saya - turned out to be a pure fake.  Hopefully I can sell it cheap as a "Wall Hanger" and cut my loss a tad.  Interesting stamp on the nakago, though, that I'm pretty sure I've seen recently on another fake posted on the forum. Must be the same Chinese shop.

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The character on the tang is 和 and it is associated with swords made in China during Word War 2 and not after Word War 2.

[Kolekt-To]

  On 6/25/2021 at 10:17 PM, Kiipu said:

 

The character on the tang is 和 and it is associated with swords made in China during Word War 2 and not after Word War 2.

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Thanks for the additional information. The NMB crew are in detective mode and on a mission to prevent uninformed buyers from bad decisions. This is commendable!

[Kiipu]

This 和 stamp is depicted in F&G.  It does show up on a variety of Japanese style swords.  The fittings on some could have even been made in Japan.  Below is a link to one such sword.  Unfortunately, BangBangSan did not chime in or it would have really gotten interesting!

Please help with translating the writing on sword

[Bruce Pennington]

Yes, I've since come to realize the blade of my original post wasn't fake after all, but one of these occupied-China-made blades, like Fuller proposed.   I'm still quite skeptical of the fittings, though.  The blade went to Stephen, so at least it's in good hands!

[BANGBANGSAN]

  On 6/26/2021 at 12:15 AM, Kiipu said:

This 和 stamp is depicted in F&G.  It does show up on a variety of Japanese style swords.  The fittings on some could have even been made in Japan.  Below is a link to one such sword.  Unfortunately, BangBangSan did not chime in or it would have really gotten interesting!

Please help with translating the writing on sword

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Thomas
It is an interesting sword .I have some photos of one( 總長斉燮元獎）like the one posted on Warrelics，but not the same one. This is a reward(gift) from 汪精衛南京偽政府 Nan King Puppet government's 治安總署督辦（治安總長） Governor of law and order 斉燮元 Qi Xie Yuan. It should be gifted to one of his subordinates between 1940-1943, the blade marked 12, so I assume it was 12 of xx.