Translation request for Bunmei sword

[D-Lewis]

Hello everyone,

New guy here :-)

Have been reading on the board and wanted to ask for some help.

Per the posting suggestions, some background...based on my martial arts experience and being a research nerd :-) my friend asked if I would help her do some unofficial (not commercial) research on a few Japanese Swords in her museum (name not included per her request). Until I stumbled along they hadn't had anyone who knew more than just to point and say sword. I'm only a little better :-) I have read a few books now on the subject and have consulted a ton of kanji charts...I have had some success with the first sword in that I was able to date the sword to Bun-Mei San-Nen Hachi-Gatsu Hi (or Aug 1471...I think)...that took a month.

The other side of the nakago has mostly eluded me however. Of the 6 characters, I think the first two are either Bizen or Bishu, third possibly Naga or Osa, Fourth no clue unless it is Fune (think OSAFUNE is wishfull thinking), Fifth possibly Sada, Sixth possibly Mitsu.

I have read a little on Bizen/Bishu and the 8 Roads, and believe the Sanyoudou road matches. If characters 3 & 4 are Osafune that provides a possibility of shortening the list of smiths. The last two characters if my wild guesses are close is Sadamitsu which doesn't show up in either Bizen or Bichu smiths

 

Thus I am left with asking help in hopes of getting somewhere on figuring out who the smith was on this sword.

If you have the bandwidth and can offer any assistance I would greatly appreciate it.

Admittedly I have a number of other swords I am researching but as to not abuse the site I am hoping to learn enough to complete the rest of the swords via my own noggin :-)

 

Thank you for your consideration

Regards

Doug

[Stephen]

Edit

Bishu Osafune Yoshimitsu.

as Koichi and Jean pointed out.

[Nobody]

That may be Bishu Osafune Yoshimitsu (備州長舩賀光).

[D-Lewis]

Hello,

Thanks for the replies.

Sadamitsu vice Yoshimitsu. I have both translations written in my notes and I have a few examples of different ways to write them. All of which makes it more perplexing for me as I try and teach myself how to read it. Nagayama's book (Connoisseur's....) talks about Yoshimitsu being one of the leading smiths in the Sue-Bizen school. Osafune Yoshimitsu is specifically called out during the Nanbokucho Period but not Muromachi I don't see any reference to either Sada or Yoshi later on but I haven't figured out all of the schools yet.

 

Is there a good place to hunt for info on Sadamitsu or Yoshimitsu? Sadamitsu shows up in the Yamato tradition-Hosho School, so maybe he was making swords on into the middle of the Muromachi period? However the yasurime is sujikai...

 

Appreciate the discussion

Regards

[Nobody]

FYI; Bizen Yoshimitsu in Muromachi period.

http://sinogi.dee.cc/osigata/katana/yo% ... u-k230.jpg

[Jean]

Eikyo Bizen Yoshimitsu , 2 generations, YOS 1289/1290 Hawley

[Jon Bowhay]

Hello everyone,

New guy here :-)

Have been reading on the board and wanted to ask for some help.

Per the posting suggestions, some background...based on my martial arts experience and being a research nerd :-) my friend asked if I would help her do some unofficial (not commercial) research on a few Japanese Swords in her museum (name not included per her request). Until I stumbled along they hadn't had anyone who knew more than just to point and say sword. I'm only a little better :-) I have read a few books now on the subject and have consulted a ton of kanji charts...I have had some success with the first sword in that I was able to date the sword to Bun-Mei San-Nen Hachi-Gatsu Hi (or Aug 1471...I think)...that took a month.

The other side of the nakago has mostly eluded me however. Of the 6 characters, I think the first two are either Bizen or Bishu, third possibly Naga or Osa, Fourth no clue unless it is Fune (think OSAFUNE is wishfull thinking), Fifth possibly Sada, Sixth possibly Mitsu.

I have read a little on Bizen/Bishu and the 8 Roads, and believe the Sanyoudou road matches. If characters 3 & 4 are Osafune that provides a possibility of shortening the list of smiths. The last two characters if my wild guesses are close is Sadamitsu which doesn't show up in either Bizen or Bichu smiths

 

Thus I am left with asking help in hopes of getting somewhere on figuring out who the smith was on this sword.

If you have the bandwidth and can offer any assistance I would greatly appreciate it.

Admittedly I have a number of other swords I am researching but as to not abuse the site I am hoping to learn enough to complete the rest of the swords via my own noggin :-)

 

Thank you for your consideration

Regards

Doug

Yes, as you now know this is Yoshimitsu of Bizen Province. One thing I may mention to you is that please look at the kanteisho sent to you and compare the signature by looking at the slant of the kanji, whether the chisel was used right to left or left to right on each stroke, how each original stroke begins and ends and how close or seperated the entire character is; and of course the spacing between kanji. This will help you with having some idea about the authenticity of the signature. Of course, a specialist usually in Japan (not all Japanese are specialists simply because they read Japanese) would be necessary to judge it correctly. Still if you look at the points I mentioned it will help you a bit. I hope I have not spoken out of turn. Just an idea on my part.

Best regards and good collecting,

Jon Bowhay

[Jean]

Kozori school

 

Typical suguta, watch Nihonto koza on Oei Bizen (Hi and Sanskrit characters)

[Jean]

http://www.sho-shin.com/kozori6.htm

[D-Lewis]

Thank you for the suggestions and pictures. They are very helpful in teaching me the differences you all have referred to.

 

I've looked at the Kantei as suggested and I believe it is the same name rendered in a different hand (I think). The Shu character-the primary vertical strokes have more of an angle to them and are shorter, I'm unsure of the exact direction of the strokes. The Osa character looks like someone drew the character in soft mud (with the sword I am looking at) with the way the sides of the character are raised, the bottom "hook" seems very close and in the same direction although the hook in the Kantei is not as round. The geometry of the box portion of the Yoshi character seems a little different in that the bottom horizontal stroke is not parallel with the top one, in the Kantei the two vertical strokes in the center appear to flow parallel versus in a northeastern direction. Does it matter if the Mei are on a different side of the tsuka? Did a swordsmith only sign on one particular side?

 

The rendering at the following link: http://sinogi.dee.cc/osigata/katana/yo% ... u-k230.jpg that was graciously provided looks very close to an exact match. Stroke length on the Shu character are very close and appear to be in the same direction, there is a slight change in angle in the upper portion of the Osa character but looks like it was "carved" in the same direction, The Yoshi character is also very close, there is a slight increase in the length of the center strokes and a small change in the angle of the bottom left stroke but minor, the Mitsu seems to be the same to me.

 

I tried to get an Oshigata of the Tsuka but that is yet another area I will improve on over time. It was difficult to get the characters to transfer. Not sure if the paper was too thick or the charcoal was too hard.

The complexities of the subject are amazing and intriguing.

Thank you all for your patience with me learning from you.

Regards

Doug

[Jean]

Doug,

 

I have seen at least 3 different mei from Yoshimitsu (Eikkyo) implying there were several smiths having the same mei, so don't focus on the mei but on the kantei process to ascertain the school. It seems the hamon is suguha. Is it usual at this period for these smiths? Is it nioi deki. Waki at this period were not as stout as in sure Muromachi, suguta was slender ...

 

Anyway, shinsa is the best to have an idea

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

According my books there were 3 generations of Yoshimitsu (father son and grandson) both worked in nioi deki. The shodai and the sandai made mainly gunome hamon, the nidai made mainly suguha hamon.

[D-Lewis]

Hello, I see everyone likes mor pixs...that I have...info I'm workin on :-)

Thank you for the information about the Yoshimitsu family. That's another aspect I have added to my to-learn list.

Would be nice if I could quit my job and just do this but ya can't eat on addiction. :-)

Eating the elephant one bite at a time, I have a question. If the Tsuba has a pear on it, Fuchi and Kashira and Menuki all have dragons, wouldn't the Saya have a dragon on it, instead of an odd looking bird? See photo attached.

Seems like there would be some effort put into cohesion right?

 

Is there a book for Tsuba like Yumoto's book is to swords?

Lot to digest, one step at a time :-)

 

Thanks again.

Regards

Doug

[Brian]

Doug,

It is unlikely that all the fittings stayed together through the years. They were so commonly swapped and changed that by the time they get to us, most have been altered. Themes often did match, but we do see papers going to koshirae without a solid theme. However in this case, the parts are probably from different time periods and themes, and are later additions to the set. I think the f/k, menuki and kozuka do look like they go together. Maybe the saya was made later as it is more fragile than the other parts, and the tsuba looks like it was added later.

 

Brian

[D-Lewis]

Thank you Brian.

I'm on the trail of Tsuba info to add detail about the sword. Looks like there is a unique culture just for that, similar to swords.

It continues to amaze me how much detail is out there about swords.

 

Regards

Doug