Shin - Gunto Sword. Need help in identifying. First timer, family heirloom.

[The_Derz]

First I’d like to say I am a novice. I read a lot of the threads on here and using google research as well as some emails, I believe the sword I have pictured below is a NCO Shin-Gunto sword.

Back story: it belonged to my great uncle who fought in WW2 as a marine. Family history has it that he got this weapon during the fighting in Saipan (as well as a Good Luck Flag).

Goals:
1. Want to make sure this is not fake.
2. Find out exactly what kind of shin - gunto this is. With estimated year of production. And location if possible. Maybe even the maker? But it looks to be factory made?
3. (Open to anything else y’all think I need to know that would make owning this blade any more fun/ interesting).
4. I would never sell because family history is more important. a rough estimate of price and appraisal would be nice. (But, not mandatory as that is not my purpose for posting here)

***noticeable notes***
- there appears to be a small Japanese emblem or stamp preceding the first digit on the blade. Any idea what that is/ means?
- blade tip appears damaged?

**more pics available by request, or if you need a different part or angle close up, let me know.
(I May need to do more research on how to open one up without breaking)

Thank you for any info!

 

***3.11.20 Update with tang pics requested below

***

Edited March 11, 2020 by The_Derz

[Brian]

There is a first for everything I guess.
An NCO blade in a regular Shin Gunto mounting? I don't think anything is fake, but maybe someone did some swapping out during the war.
You'll need to take off that handle so we can see that tang.
 

[16k]

It looks... weird, I guess is the best word.

 

The mountings indeed look real and belong to an officer sword, type 98. 
 

The blade, if not from a replica (better pics would melt here, both of the number and both ends of the groove) belong to a NCO type 95 sword. The tassel, if original, is probably an end of the war tassel.

 

Maybe the original blade broke and the officer used a NCO sword to replace it? 

[Dave R]

 Not unique, but certainly not common. Here is one from a sellers site, posted some time ago by Bangbangsan.

[Dave R]

 And another, that I forget where I got it. (Nowadays I file with more info as to where I found stuff). Mr Komiya on Warrelics.eu reckons they were made because of shortages in wartime supply. Myself, I think they would have been a damn good practical sword, with a Gov't guaranteed blade. 

[Peter Bleed]

There seems to be lots and lots of mixing and matching going on these days. Many people know how to re-use gunto koshirae. So I am suspicisous. My BET is that this is a a fairly recent marriage between a gunto koshirae that had held a collectible blade and a non-com sword that had unsalable fittings.

TAA DAAH..."An officer's sword that broke and had the blade replaced by...  a good story.

Peter

[Kiipu]

Hi Aaron, welcome to the forum.  Your sword consists of a Nagoya made Type 95 Military Sword blade, serial number 名66576, that has been fitted with a handle and scabbard from a Type 98 officers sword, possibly done by your Great Uncle after the battle for Saipan was over.  It is not a fake but it may have lost some collector interest because of these changes.  However, do not let this fact get in the way of family history which in my opinion affords it a higher value.  Enjoy your family keepsake and take good care of it.

 

Japanese Sword Care And Etiquette

http://www.nbthk-ab.org/cleaning-maintenance.html

 

***noticeable notes***
- there appears to be a small Japanese emblem or stamp preceding the first digit on the blade. Any idea what that is/ means?

 

This is the kanji character 名 "na".  It is a final inspection mark used by Nagoya Arsenal.  It just means the blade passed final inspection and was accepted by the army.

[The_Derz]

Here is the tang as requested. Looks like no marks. Looks like the two holes seem to add up to story that blade was replaced in a new handle. But it doesn’t look recent by any means. It was likely done by the original owner or by my relative?? but any all documents you may have on this story or anything else is much obliged!

 

Any care tips?

 

Thanks!

[The_Derz]

And in case y’all like the family history story. Here is pic of great uncle in 1946 when he came home.

[Bruce Pennington]

Derz, if that isn’t your actual name, please go to your settings and put at least a first name (forum rules, plus we really just like to get to know each other!)

 

Assuming your great day NCO’s was the only owner since Saipan, I’m with Dave. There was a big program in n the war that let officers rent and buy NCO blades due to shortages Discussed here: http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/short-development-history-type-95-gunto-676112-7/ . If the provenance is solid, then I feel like we have a solid piece of evidence that officers we’re having these blades decked out in officer koshirae rather than simply wearing an NCO gunto (which after saying that out loud seems obvious that no self respecting officer would hang a Type 95 on his side!).

 

The all brown tassel is mostly known as “late-war” but there is a bit of evidence that they were used by the Gunzoku, civilian forces of the army. Discussed here: http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/what-were-regulations-army-civilian-employees-carry-swords-701783/

 

Update, as you posted the new pics as I was typing: Dang! That nakago (tang) is not a normal Type 95 nakago! This would imply the blade was made special for an officer rig, yet I don’t see why they would do the serial number, unless maybe they expected to get it back, like a rental.

[Dave R]

 "Update, as you posted the new pics as I was typing: Dang! That nakago (tang) is not a normal Type 95 nakago! This would imply the blade was made special for an officer rig, yet I don’t see why they would do the serial number, unless maybe they expected to get it back, like a rental."

 

 

Altered at a late stage or even pulled from a mounted sword, and just chopped short, and remounted, so the mekugi ana is moved, and the hole for the end screw removed......

 

 And here we have another, posted by Leen Van Ochten on the Fb page. This one probably pulled at an earlier stage in the manufacturing process.

[Kiipu]

 Just chopped short, and remounted, so the mekugi ana is moved, and the hole for the end screw removed...... And here we have another, posted by Leen Van Ochten on the Fb page. This one probably pulled at an earlier stage in the manufacturing process.

 

Of the several illustrations that you have posted, do any of them have serial numbers though?  My apology to Aaron for interrupting his interesting thread about his Great Uncle's sword.

[Peter Bleed]

Dear Derz,

Maybe I am too suspicious. Forgive me, I intended nothing mean or unkind about your ancestor. Indeed, I respect his service. I also commend you for investigating this family patrimony.. If you can come up with a 1946 photo of your great uncle with this sword it would be truly significant.

Peter

[BANGBANGSAN]

Dave

The photo That I post awhile ago and the other photos you post are 造兵刀 Zohei-to, a lot of  people confused them as 村田刀 Murata to.

It has arsenal made blade with blood grove but no Ser# on the blade, use type 98 mount.

The OP sword is modified(look like wartime work） NCO blade cut the partial tang to fit into type 98 handle,like many remount Koto.

Here is the link about 造兵刀 http://ohmura-study.net/206.html

 

 Not unique, but certainly not common. Here is one from a sellers site, posted some time ago by Bangbangsan.

[Dave R]

Of the several illustrations that you have posted, do any of them have serial numbers though?  My apology to Aaron for interrupting his interesting thread about his Great Uncle's sword.

 

 A cursory review does not show any such in my files. I can of course go digging further, but I charge £75 per hour for serious directed research, as opposed to sharing casually on social media, 2 hours to be paid for upfront!

 

 I think we have established though that factory made blades of the NCO pattern do turn up in officers mounts, in one form or the other, and with better provenance for when they turn up the other way round..... The question is, at what stage of manufacture did they usually get pulled from the production line, or from service?

[The_Derz]

My apologies for mis reading admin rules on names. I think My name should be showing up at bottom of posts now? And added profile picture. I am still trying to figure out how to change my username (but my nickname in college was The Derz - so that has become my online profile name for alot of things from online gamer  tags to other forum names). 

 

Mr. Peter,

No apologies needed!  I have 0 clue about how any of this works, and if this turns out to be 100% phony Then I want to know !  (which it appears to be leaning towards likley real with "during war mods" by either original Japanese Owner, or my Great uncle Bud who found one or the other and put them together), 

 

I highly doubt my great uncle put them together himself. (open to please prove me otherwise). Those holes would've had to have been drilled? and that bambo piece looked to be custom made for that new hole, as it basically disintegrated as it was most difficult to remove. Its in two peices now but much smaller just to fit the sword back together to hold.

 

Thanks to Dave and Bruce, Brian ADmin, 16K, and Kiipu for yalls awesome input.

 My friend who is living in Japan is working to decipher the "good Luck flag" and has got me a name who that flag belonged to and I am hoping it turns out to be an officer who owned this sword (LONG SHOT) but possible. 

 

I definitely want to try and find a pic with GU with sword and possibly (longer shot) with Japanese officer or NCO with this sword.

 

-From what y'all are saying: it looks like 2 possible scenarios:

--1. most likely: My GU picked this up as sovenir on island and flag was separate (but sword likely authentic, just two different authentic pieces put together to make a piece?)??

--------sword came from saipan or just a "collection depot" where a GI could've been selling from a pile (but likely authentic)

-------------the craftsmanship on the tang leads me to believe that original owner had to have had some help redoing the new hole, (that bambo piece was too snug and had a custom bend to it)

 

2. less likely scenario: A Japanese soldier starts off war as NCO, gets promoted and wants to have the "officer style" handle to show his rank, but keep his blade? or they were out of new blades when he got promoted??? (saipan was very late in war when Japan was on last leg and resources, but Saipan had civilian towns on there, so this story isn't out of context) LONG SHOT but still like to think possible.???

- how cool would it be if the flag also belonged to same guy??? (very unlikely)

 

Thanks to all. Let me know if I'm still on target.

 

Thanks Bangbangsman:

 

***and to all***: would love to get a summary of what you think story is and where it came from after we get alot of input.

And lastly would love to either get a vote or consensus to ensure not a fake?

Edited March 11, 2020 by The_Derz

[16k]

I personally don’t believe it came out of the factory as is. Look at the pictures where the mune and the Habaki meet. There is an obvious gap. I think it’s a field work.

[Dave R]

 To fit a blade to a hilt you either file/grind the tang to fit, or you excavate the hilt to fit. In this case it looks like the tang was altered, so we need to look for evidence of recent work, or a 70 year old patina on the reshaping.

 I other words, lots of detailed pic's of the tang.

[Bruce Pennington]

Aaron, (good job on the added real name. The post name is normal. Lots/most guys use a forum name at the top)

Rest assured it's not a fake. All are WWII era parts. The mystery is how they all got together! And my belief is that this was done for an officer, due to the shortage of gunto.

 

You can read some of the discussion starting post #5 on this thread: http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/deflating-another-myth-type-3-army-officera-s-sword-expanded-version-584796/

 

There are other discussions about it.

[Shamsy]

I'm of the more skeptical side, though the NCO blade are good blades and as already stated, it seems far more likely that an NCO blade would be placed in an officers koshirae than the other way around. Remembering that there was a 'Rent a 95' program and a private purchase scheme.

 

I can easily believe that an officer would buy a 95 and have the koshirae changed to reduce the (not really sure of the term to use... shame? Embarrassment?) of having a piece of issued equipment as his private purchase equipment, even though it was a temporary measure. I cannot see that the other way around, keeping the 95 koshirae and replacing the 95 blade. Field work is also possible, though I'm not sure that 'borrowing' issued equipment owned by the emperor would have been a particularly acceptable practice.

 

In short, I think it's plausible for 95 blades to appear in 98 koshirae, but not the other way around.

 

More detailed shots are always welcome though, as there is sadly always going to be a degree of skepticism due to the trend of dealers mixing fittings and blades to create 'rare' variations of swords.

[lonely panet]

Dont bother checking Dawsons page 156.

 

Shock horror same type of sword, just one a a serial number onthe blade and a second drill hole

 

 

And ps, take better photos if you want help.

 

Iv seen approx 6 of these over the years now. Evan on 94 mounts

[The_Derz]

Here are more detailed pics of tang. And deeper groves of the blade.

 

Let me know what y’all need more close angles of.

 

I can’t thank y’all enough! Let me know what y’all think.

 

Would cleaning rust off tang help identify any marks?

[BANGBANGSAN]

Steve

Maybe keep his dignity(尊厳を保つ)is a better way to say it.

 

 

I can easily believe that an officer would buy a 95 and have the koshirae changed to reduce the (not really sure of the term to use... shame? Embarrassment?) 

[Oshy]

I would leave the nakago(tang) be, it's meant to patina with age.

[BANGBANGSAN]

Aaron

 

No need to clean the tang, it should have one or two arsenal mark, but nothing special.

 

Here are more detailed pics of tang. And deeper groves of the blade.

Let me know what y’all need more close angles of.

I can’t thank y’all enough! Let me know what y’all think.

Would cleaning rust off tang help identify any marks?

[Shamsy]

Dont bother checking Dawsons page 156.

Shock horror same type of sword, just one a a serial number onthe blade and a second drill hole

And ps, take better photos if you want help.

Iv seen approx 6 of these over the years now. Evan on 94 mounts

Trystan has already posted a link to these, so no shock horror for anyone who has actually read the thread.

 

This is plainly a repurposed 95 blade as the serial number, extra hole and cut-down nakago demonstrates. It is therefore entirely different to one of the unstamped arsenal blades which I believe are what you are referring to, Hamish? This is why we are discussing it.

 

------------------------------

The photos are not great, but the third one in in the post following Hamish's post clearly show where the nakago has been ground down. The blade was made to fit the tsuka, not the other way around. The second drilled hole is particularly crude, too. The original still shows the thread from the screw that used to hold the 95 tsuka.

[Bruce Pennington]

I notice the thread marks, too, but thought that was odd as the 95 uses a barrel screw, doesn't it? That wouldn't need, or leave threaded marks.

[The_Derz]

Dave

The photo That I post awhile ago and the other photos you post are 造兵刀 Zohei-to, a lot of  people confused them as 村田刀 Murata to.

It has arsenal made blade with blood grove but no Ser# on the blade, use type 98 mount.

The OP sword is modified(look like wartime work） NCO blade cut the partial tang to fit into type 98 handle,like many remount Koto.

Here is the link about 造兵刀 http://ohmura-study.net/206.html

 

Been doing a lot of catching up on the links. But this link alludes to what my sword most likely is by Bangbangsan.... but it’s 100% in Japanese... the bottom has a few paragraphs in English but doesn’t pertain to that above it?

 

Any clarification would be much obliged .

[The_Derz]

Aaron, (good job on the added real name. The post name is normal. Lots/most guys use a forum name at the top)

Rest assured it's not a fake. All are WWII era parts. The mystery is how they all got together! And my belief is that this was done for an officer, due to the shortage of gunto.

You can read some of the discussion starting post #5 on this thread: http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/deflating-another-myth-type-3-army-officera-s-sword-expanded-version-584796/

There are other discussions about it.

Man that nick guy is awesome. I could spend hours reading this stuff.

 

So if I’m reading your links correctly:

- tassel represents essentially civilian like military (high clerk, accountant, adjutant, etc.). Basically civilian attached to Japanese army and did some type of “higher education” required work and was attached to an army unit to help serve the army, but not officially part of the army. He was part of that word “gunzukho”. Man I’m still learning don’t check spelling please lol.

OR, it was “late war” regular army military officers got brown tassels.

 

Leaning to first point?, but still cool.

 

—-the blade was made at Nagoya Arsenal, to be purposed for a NCO military official. But due to arms shortage and increasing bombing pressure by Americans and struggling to keep up. They allowed army officers to “rent” some blades, and since this military civilian or military rank was of higher “officer” rank. He got to use the type 98 handle. Boom, make custom fit?

 

—- and then it seems nick Alludes this to a “type 3” style. But not the same type 3 as “osumra” has researched?

 

.... my brain has exploded.

 

What other shots of tang y’all need. I got an iPhone 11 and can get more pics. I can try and upload higher res pics but just less at a time

Due to 6mb cap. Just let me know what y’all need!

[The_Derz]

I'm of the more skeptical side, though the NCO blade are good blades and as already stated, it seems far more likely that an NCO blade would be placed in an officers koshirae than the other way around. Remembering that there was a 'Rent a 95' program and a private purchase scheme.

I can easily believe that an officer would buy a 95 and have the koshirae changed to reduce the (not really sure of the term to use... shame? Embarrassment?) of having a piece of issued equipment as his private purchase equipment, even though it was a temporary measure. I cannot see that the other way around, keeping the 95 koshirae and replacing the 95 blade. Field work is also possible, though I'm not sure that 'borrowing' issued equipment owned by the emperor would have been a particularly acceptable practice.

In short, I think it's plausible for 95 blades to appear in 98 koshirae, but not the other way around.

More detailed shots are always welcome though, as there is sadly always going to be a degree of skepticism due to the trend of dealers mixing fittings and blades to create 'rare' variations of swords.

 

I get the skepticism. But I can assure you if any work was down to alter it. It would’ve had to be done prior to reaching America, it would’ve had to be done prior to my family arriving back to America in 1946. It has been at my grandparents house then with me for quite sometime. Likely 1950’s or 1960’s. Been with me since the 1990’s.

 

And I read a lot of articles about Australians making fake souvenirs and selling to GI’s and also Chinese copies coming out more recently. But that extra drill hole and what not seems pretty advance for a GI to do in the field to bring home a better souvenir. Or sell to a different GI returning home.

 

He brought back sword and flag same time which means it would’ve had to have been altered before this pic was taken and we got that date on the back.

 

 

Thank you for your great continued feedback