Unknown shin gunto sword

[Jason_D]

Hello everybody , i would like (again ) your help to identify if this sword is authentic.

The blade is weird looking like a damascus steel.

What kind of hamon is this? (by hamon i mean the wavy line on the edge some other swords i have seen , i hope hamon is the right word)This sword doesnt have a wavy line.

What do the Japanese stamp mean?

 

Whatever info you can give is welcome.

 

Below are some pictures... if you need better pictures of some part just ask me.

 

 

Thank you!

[Oshy]

Looks like the hada was enhanced using acid etching of some sort? The hamon appears most visible in the kissaki(tip) picture. Are there any other serial codes not shown here, perhaps on the back of the blade or mouth of the saya?

[vajo]

Its a fake/ repro sword.

[Dave R]

 Every so often blades like this turn up, and create havoc! They are a known type, Amahide is known to have made them, and I have seen one of them in hand, with a good provenance.

 As far as I can make out, they are a flashy blade option, possibly influenced by 19th century blades from Western manufacturers, Solingen sold Damascus blades as an option for private purchase.

 

http://www.antiques.com/classified/1134564/Antique-Imperial-German-Naval-Officer-Sword--Damascus-Blade

[Jason_D]

 Every so often blades like this turn up, and create havoc! They are a known type, Amahide is known to have made them, and I have seen one of them in hand, with a good provenance.

 As far as I can make out, they are a flashy blade option, possibly influenced by 19th century blades from Western manufacturers, Solingen sold Damascus blades as an option for private purchase.

 

http://www.antiques.com/classified/1134564/Antique-Imperial-German-Naval-Officer-Sword--Damascus-Blade

 

 

Its a fake/ repro sword.

 

I am confused... its not an authentic shin gunto ? Is it after ww2 make?

If amahide made it , doesnt that make it authentic?

 

Thank you.

[Dave R]

This is one of Amamahide' mixed metal specials.... 

[vajo]

The blade above is fake.

The blade, the tsuka, the habaki, the saya. All is from somewhere made in Asia, but not in Japan.

[Grey Doffin]

As far as I know, no real Japanese sword ever had a serial number on its habaki.  That and the phony Damascus steel (and other clues) leave little doubt; this is a post war fake.

Grey

[Dave R]

Like I say, they do turn up, and when they do they cause furious arguments because most collectors are not familiar with them... and if they don'r recognise them they cry fake.

 

 Of course there are fakes about, and they often have an in your face pattern welded blade. But I think yours is a genuine Shin Gunto.

 

This one below was posted on this message board by lindus.

[Dave R]

As far as I know, no real Japanese sword ever had a serial number on its habaki.  That and the phony Damascus steel (and other clues) leave little doubt; this is a post war fake.

Grey

 

 I missed that, so there we go, sadly it is a fake and I was caught out by my hope to find another Amahide.

[Jason_D]

Looks like the hada was enhanced using acid etching of some sort? The hamon appears most visible in the kissaki(tip) picture. Are there any other serial codes not shown here, perhaps on the back of the blade or mouth of the saya?

Some more photos...

 

 

Thank you for the help.

[vajo]

Jason, it is 200% fake. All is wrong.

[Jason_D]

Thank you all for the help , i guess its a fake one ... 

[Jason_D]

Jason, it is 200% fake. All is wrong.

 

Thank you very much! (again)

[BANGBANGSAN]

Grey

You're right, this sword Jason post is a fake.

But, never say never about WW2 Gunto, in fact,I have an NCR Gunto made by 兼義 Kaneyoshi with numbered Habaki.

 

 

 

 

 

 

As far as I know, no real Japanese sword ever had a serial number on its habaki.  That and the phony Damascus steel (and other clues) leave little doubt; this is a post war fake.

Grey

[Jason_D]

 

Grey

You're right, this sword Jason post is a fake.

But, never say never about WW2 Gunto, in fact,I have an NCR Gunto made by 兼義 Kaneyoshi with numbered Habaki.

 

 

Interesting...nice post , very educative.

[Bruce Pennington]

You can see the clear difference in quality and accuracy between the two:

 

[Shamsy]

I have two very late war swords, one with serial numbers on the habaki and one with serial numbers on the blade. It's not unheard of with the mess of swords, especially late war.

[IJASWORDS]

Dave R, I have a 1942 Yoshimichi (signed, dated) in gunto mounts, that you would swear was Damascus. Big distinct waves of folded mixed metal. Very similar to the Amamahide photo you posted. They do exist.  

[BANGBANGSAN]

Steve

True!Bill's Copper handle 95 also has re-stamped Ser# on the blade near Habaki.

 

 

 

I have two very late war swords, one with serial numbers on the habaki and one with serial numbers on the blade. It's not unheard of with the mess of swords, especially late war.

 

[IJASWORDS]

I have put up some photos of my Yoshimichi, with Seki stamp, that many would write off as a fake due to Damascus hada. I can assure everyone they exist. 

[Shamsy]

Steve

True!Bill's Copper handle 95 also has re-stamped Ser# on the blade near Habaki.

Yes, some of the Pattern 1 95 have the extra numbers. The examples I'm thinking of are not 95s though. One is a very crude sword with 95 characteristics, the other is a crude sword all covered in leather.

[PNSSHOGUN]

There was another Ray had listed in Shirasaya, very bold and obvious Jigane that was made for an Admiral.

[David Flynn]

The actual Japanese swords that one thinks maybe mixed metal or Damascus, are actually swords that have been acid treated, this brings up the hada and because it's acid, it affects the lines of the hada and hamon.  As far as I'm aware, Amahide didn't uses "Mixed Metals" but  are true Nihonto (ones without stamps).   Amahide, also had O hada, which when acid cleaned, tends to make them look like Chinese copies.  However, the OP is chinese.

I believe Niels sword is acid treated.

[lonely panet]

The actual Japanese swords that one thinks maybe mixed metal or Damascus, are actually swords that have been acid treated, this brings up the hada and because it's acid, it affects the lines of the hada and hamon.  As far as I'm aware, Amahide didn't uses "Mixed Metals" but  are true Nihonto (ones without stamps).   Amahide, also had O hada, which when acid cleaned, tends to make them look like Chinese copies.  However, the OP is chinese.

I believe Niels sword is acid treated.

 

I agree with david,

 

the orginal sword is a fake from 100 mtrs

[dwmc]

Dave R, I have a 1942 Yoshimichi (signed, dated) in gunto mounts, that you would swear was Damascus. Big distinct waves of folded mixed metal. Very similar to the Amamahide photo you posted. They do exist.  

 

A bit like this possibly ?? Modern Chinese?  I don't think so...

 

Dave M.

[lonely panet]

Just have a look at the original post fitting, its obviously a fake.

 

Suddenly the py have figgured out how to fake a obscure hotstamp and your all tricked

[Denis V]

I’ve always wondered if there are sarute who can go all the way round the kabuto gane? All mine are stuck on one side and can’t be flipped to the other side. Here the sarute looks very big.

 

The tsuba and koshirae in general on this sword are not even well copied. 
 

As far as the habaki is concerned, i also always believed they never came with a number on it.

But this is the beauty of the board, you learn every day :-)

[BANGBANGSAN]

Here is another Type 98 with numbered Habaki

 

[ROKUJURO]

The actual Japanese swords that one thinks maybe mixed metal or Damascus, are actually swords that have been acid treated, this brings up the hada and because it's acid, it affects the lines of the hada and hamon.  As far as I'm aware, Amahide didn't use "Mixed Metals" but  are true Nihonto (ones without stamps).   Amahide, also had O hada, which when acid cleaned, tends to make them look like Chinese copies.  However, the OP is chinese.

I believe Niels sword is acid treated.

David,

 

this is simply wrong. You cannot enhance a traditional HADA with acid as there are usually no different alloys found in one place. Acid treatment works where two different steel alloys occur that have different 'sensibilities' with acid attack. As an example, this is the case with high carbon and low carbon content as is found on the YAKIBA and the JIGANE of a traditionally made blade. 

 

A coarse Damascus pattern can be made visible with acid as different alloys - not necessarily high and low carbon content, but Nickel and Manganese will work even better - are differently attacked and will reveal the pattern. When we see cheap blades with an obvious Damascus pattern instead of a traditional JIGANE, we can be sure that they were acid treated, but then it is not a HADA but simply fire-welded Damascus of (mostly) questionable quality.

 

We have discussed this subject before.