Sukesada katana hamon question.

[BjornLundin]

Hi, first Im new to nihonto, so please excuse my ignorance.

 

I have 3 blades right now and been trying to study them. For this katana, it has a straight hamon? With regulat whitish waves under it. Does any one know the right term for it?, And how did the smith produce such an effect that is opposite to the straight hada?

 

Thank you

-Bjorn

[Ganko]

What appears to be a straight hamon is actually a contrast enhancement done with hazuya stones by whoever polished it. In this case it is done too heavily and obscures the actual hamon underneath which appears to be a gunome variant. As far as the hada itself is concerned, I can't say due to the poor polish.

It seems you have acquired the affliction, welcome to the club.

[swordnoob]

The term for a straight hamon is suguha. As mentioned by Tom above, the hamon probably isn't a true suguha. Based on what I can (barely) see of the waves underneath, I would guess it's gunome as well. Hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong. In addition, here's a link with a bunch of different hamon patterns that you could use to try identifying what you have http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/hamonpatterns.html

[BjornLundin]

Thank you, so it would be mildare gunome. How easy or difficult would it be to bring forward the natural hamon? I post additional pictures of the whole blade. Im wondering if the blade was intended to be slender or this is an effect of numerus polishes. 

 

Could not really see any hamon om the tip (kissaki). Is that common?

 

Please if someone could translate the shirasaya. It would be helpfull.

 

Sorry for my pictures, tricky to photo.

[16k]

From what I can see, underneath the hadori polish, you have what seems to be a Mino Hamon. Hard to say more with that state of polish. Better pics of the tang would be great.

 

as for bringing the Hamon out, you can’t. Period. It’s a profession and whatever action you would take would most likely ruin the blade. Amateur polish isn’t advocated on this site designed for the preservation of antique blades. Trust me, you can’t do it or if you do, you’ll most likely regret it afterwards.

[EdWolf]

Hi Bjorn,

 

The kissaki is poorly shaped. The fukura and ko-shinogi don't run parallel. Reshaped and that's why the hamon is lost or parts of the hamon are lost.

[16k]

  On 2/24/2020 at 7:40 PM, EdWolf said:

Hi Bjorn,

 

The kissaki is poorly shaped. The fukura and ko-shinogi don't run parallel. Reshaped and that's why the hamon is lost or parts of the hamon are lost.

 

yup, I’d missed that. It’s also probably why I had issue placing a period too. Nakago makes me think Muromachi but with too much tapering... which could be the result of reshaping.

[BjornLundin]

Sorry, did not clarify my question. I would not polish a nihonto. How difficult would it be for a prof. polisher to correct this. I have had contact with Martin Hornak to polish another blade. Wondering if it would be worth fixing this. I like it, but I wonder why did the polisher do it like this the first time. To hide a tired blade?

 

Picture of the tang included.

 

Thank you for answering!

[16k]

Okay, I get it better now.

 

It’s hard to give you a reply. I’m not sure the blade is too tired for repair. The tip was probably damaged and the sugata corrected to remove dents. Now, is it worth it? I guess no one can tell you that. It depends on your budget and wether you’re ready to spend more than the value of the blade. Best solution would be to show it to another collector in hand first or ask your polisher’s opinion.

 

IF Muromachi, and IF Mino (bear in mind that I might be 100% wrong), there are plenty of blades from this time period and tradition on the market, so, in the end, let’s say that of you want to keep it in your collection for your own pleasure, might be worth it, if you want to upgrade it to resell it one day with a profit, then probably not.

[BIG]

Hi Bjorn, please share sayagaki pics,our experts will be able to clear..

 

Best and welcome

[BjornLundin]

Sayagaki, is this correct.

[16k]

Yes, this correct. Unfortunately, I can’t help you here. If I were you, I’d post a thread with that Sayagaki in the translation section. Best way to attract our Japanese speaking members attention.

[Jussi Ekholm]

It looks like late Muromachi Bizen Sukesada, sayagaki mentions Tenbun 天文 1532-1555 as period.

[16k]

See, I was wrong! 

[Bugyotsuji]

Jean-Pierre, what Jussi said is only a reading of the shirasaya, not a comment on the blade. Sukesada, around Tenbun, and the length. 

[Ken-Hawaii]

If you read through comments in this area, you'll find that few blades are worth a new polish. At up to $100/inch, it's not an inexpesive investment, & seldom do you recover it when you sell the blade. Yes, you can make it look prettier, but the metal that is removed by a polish can never be replaced.

[Bugyotsuji]

Recently I had a 'light' polish done on a tanto to remove scuffing and small rust pits, but only after consulting with several people including the polisher specifying the limits of what I wanted done. Minimal damage was done while repairing the damage, I hope.

[Jacques]

Bizen Sukesada according sayagaki (sue Bizen), i can't make out kanji on nakago which is typically Bizen. 

[BjornLundin]

I posted a better picture of the tang here. Did not want to double post.

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/31283-translation-of-a-sayagaki/

[Jussi Ekholm]

As you asked for a sword group I can recommend NBTHK Scandinavia as a member: https://nbthkscandinavia.wordpress.com/You'll find experienced folks in there who can offer a lot of assistance. Group meets up in Stockholm area but hit them mail and let them know about you.

 

Now as for the sword I will combine the info from both threads in this reply. I do hope this is not a discouraging post so I will try to have some positive thoughts in here too and not be too negative. There were lots of Sukesada smiths working during the latter part of Muromachi period in Bizen province. Unfortunately the majority of them were not notable smiths. For Sukesada you generally are looking for some of the "named" ones Hikobei, Hikozaemon, Yosōzaemon, Genbei, and there are some others too. Those are the reknown Sukesada smiths that you are after if you want to focus on top of the Sukesada lineage. Many of the regular Sukesada swords were just made to use and often massproduced in large numbers.

 

When I look at your sword it is c. 65 cm blade with fairly short nakago (tang). Combination like this was very common in latter part or Muromachi starting from the very late 1400's up until the end of Muromachi period but nearing the end of Muromachi the swords were already getting slightly longer again in general. Combine this with what looks to me as quite crude 2 character mei Sukesada I'd think this was a "massproduced" sword from late Muromachi period by Bizen Sukesada smiths. Unfortunately when looking at the sword the current condition seems to be very rough.

 

While not the best understood in looking at online pictures as a beginner to this hobby here are some references that I knew I'd find immidiately. First one will be your average Sukesada in good condition and second one will be by reknown smith Yosōzaemon Sukesada

https://www.aoijapan.com/katana-bishu-osafune-sukesada-eisho-10-nen-8-gatsu-hi/

https://iidakoendo.com/6367/

 

I believe the papers on your sword are from Juho Token Kenkyukai, which unfortunately do not carry commercial value in the market. Now that does not mean they are wrong in this particular case. I do think they are quite correct as the smith is most likely late Muromachi Bizen Sukesada as they state. Now will it be Eishō,Tenbun or Tenshō that would be very difficult to say for me especially in the current state and even in pristine state. You have a piece of history in this sword. However restoring a sword like this might not repay the investment as there are lots and lots of these in the market.

 

I do hope you enjoy this hobby and your stay here in this forum. I am sure the guys in Sweden will give you a warm welcome too if you contact the Scandinavian branch. Ask all the questions you want and I hope we can be of assistance.

[BjornLundin]

Thank you Jussi.

 

Will try to contact the Swedish bransch. Thank you for to be not to negative. When buying this blade I explicit asked if there were any flaws and asked if it needed a new polish. The answer was no. As I am new I cannot but trust the seller. Probably as experienced seller he would know what this blade is and what flaws (kissake) it has. It would have been nice to have been told this from the beginning. Maybe the price of the blade that I paid was would be expected for this kind of blade, but now I question it.

 

If the seller (board member here) would want to comment on it, it is his choiche.

 

For me, I want to have a set or two as a memory of my time in Okayama and maybe leave something special to my sons.

 

Now I will study more, and hopefully find the perfect match.

 

Thank you all for helping me ????

[BjornLundin]

Hi, Martin at Nihonto Europe did not want to comment on these boards, due to bad blood earlier. He assures that there is nothing wrong with the kissake. He states that it is good blade that has been in a few battles, been polished a few times and nothing wrong with the current polish. He thinks the price was very fair ~2800 USD. He says that for him the smith is Toshiro Yokoyama. JoSaku and O-wazamono. 

 

Somehow I get the feeling that something is not right here from his description and what this board says. 

 

I believe people here give there honest opinion and that standards may be high, which is understandable. Still it would have been appreciated, if I would have got a ("honest") description, I say honest since I think stuff were left out, when I asked about it and told that I was a total newbie. It may of course be difficult how to describe things and maybe it should be expected to have knowledge to a certain level, beforehand making a purchase.

 

I will make another thread for advice on what smith and era would be best to focus on based on what Im looking for. 

 

Again, thank you everyone for your opinions, that is how I learn about this new area of art. There is something very "magical" how these swords combine both art, the pride, and legacy of the smith that is then used as an object. 

 

-Bjorn

[Brian]

Bjorn,
I think you are looking for an answer that cannot be given, and mistaking that for info that is being withheld.
Sukesada is one of the most prolific names in Japanese swords, and there were so many that most don't even bother trying to pin it down to a certain one.
With a short signature, you would usually expect one of the mass produced kazu-uchimono from the late Koto period. But there really isn't a way of pinning it down more unless you have a certification.
In your case you have a sayagaki that cannot be trusted unless you know who wrote it, and origami from a group that isn't as reliable as the main ones.
So there is no definitive answer to give. All that can be given is what is there in front of you.
Not sure how anyone can tell you it is by X smith, but would be nice if he was correct.

We all want all the answers about our swords, but sometimes we have to accept what we do have, and be happy that it is real and in a reasonable condition.
You may learn more if you submit it to the NBTHK, or you may get the same answer.
Enjoy your sword, and don't get frustrated if you don't get a huge amount of info. For that, you need one of the smiths that is more identifiable.

Btw, yes..Martin would be scarce around here due to the past controversy over his trademarking of the word "Nihonto" in Europe.
https://euipo.europa.eu/eSearch/#details/trademarks/017734872
Yes..that is still a VERY sore point.

[BjornLundin]

Thank you. 

 

I can be referred to as the classical newbien and I am happy with the blade. So I will leave it like that  

 

-B 

[Northman]

Hello Bjorn - another novice here.  Regardless of pedigree or prize, remember that you've still got a true piece of history in your hands.  Who knows what stories that blade could tell over it's centuries of existence...

[BjornLundin]

Thank you Northman ???????? Actually I appreciate everone comments. I choosed this blade based on its characteristics of the shape. The slender blade and balance makes it for me a deadly weapon.

 

The difference in opinion makes it a good study piece. Mino or bizen... Why did the appraisal give it a better origami than the usual one... Is the polish bad or good for this type etc...

 

I will try to take it with me to study group to learn more.

 

I hate questions unaswered so this will make me study harder

 

Is there a scientific way to measure age? Carbontest or metal composition? Or similar?

[Ken-Hawaii]

Yes, age is determined by the sugata, the shape of the blade. That is the first step in kantei.