Momoyama shino cup?

[PietroParis]

This small shino cup was briefly on sale today:

 

 

More pictures are available following the link above. Somebody snapped it up while I was busy trying to decipher the calligraphy on the box and on the appraisal paper. The latter does look like Arakawa Toyozo's writing, judging by some of his boxes that were sold on the same site. A question to the local experts: was the dating realistic? I guess I missed a bargain in that case...

 

Cheers, Pietro

[Steve Waszak]

Hi Pietro,

 

Really need to see the foot of the bowl to start to have a better idea if it could be period... 

[PietroParis]

Hi Pietro,

 

Really need to see the foot of the bowl to start to have a better idea if it could be period...

Thanks for dropping by! If you follow the link in the first line of my original post you’ll find many more pictures, including the foot.

[PietroParis]

Anyway, here it is:

[Steve Waszak]

lol... Thanks, Pietro.  Moved too quickly to answer you to remember the link!    Looking at those photos, I would say no, not of the period.  Several details point away from that, I think.  Certainly inspired by the period, though... 

[PietroParis]

Thanks a lot, this puts my mind at ease! Then I must assume that the appraisal too is only inspired by Toyozo...   I understand that he had a major role in the revival of shino ware, so it's unlikely that he would have been fooled.

 

When you have time, would you mind explaining to a beginner what details in the cup point away from the Momoyama period?

 

Thanks again for your help,

 

Pietro

[sabi]

I'll let Steve hash out the details as he's much more dialed in with Shino, but as with most things - if it seems too good to be true, it is.

 

A legitimate Momoyama sake cup will fetch 100k+ Yen without breaking a sweat, and while lucky finds on auction sites do (very rarely) happen, you have to wonder why a ceramics dealer would let it go for such short money.

 

That site lists some nice pieces, but please take their descriptions/attributions with a grain of salt. They had a Raku chawan up recently that was given to Chojiro... CHOJIRO, the founder of the Raku tradition, and it was at something like 70k. Such a bowl, if real, would likely be pegged by the country of Japan as an important art object, if not higher, and command millions of Yen.

[Steve Waszak]

Hi Pietro,

 

Well, there are several things to note here on why this piece is pretty clearly not of the Momoyama years. 

 

The shape is not in keeping with the usual Mino/Shino expression of the turn of the 17th century.  Momoyama Shino ware will usually have a more elongated and distorted or "warped" shape to it, irregular, with a rim that is far from so "perfectly" formed and round as we see in the piece you posted.  The rims on Momoyama Mino ware, including Shino will have a highly irregular form, and often will be missing glaze here and there along the edge.

 

The glaze, too, is wrong for the period on the bowl you posted.  It is much too new looking, lacking in depth and in any sort of "patina."  While it's true that pottery doesn't quite take on a patina like ivory or iron will, there is still a richness to the surface borne of those centuries that more newly formed objects don't seem to reach.  I can say that in my experience, anyway, I have yet to see a more recently-made ceramic (under 100 years old) carry the same "luster" that a 400-year-old chawan (that was used) will have.  Further, the glaze on "your" bowl is lacking any imperfections, damage, scuffs, chips, etc...  Again, too perfect.  And the color of Momoyama Shino is a hard-to-describe creamy white that is not so bright white as we see with newer Shino pieces; additionally, newly-made Shino ware often goes over the top with its translucence and milkiness.  Real Shino works from Momoyama times have that mellow creamy-white punctuated with imperfections, bare patches, etc...  And very important to note:  real Momoyama Shino chawan will often present with that skin-of-an-orange "pitting" all over the surface.  When this is juxtaposed with the reddish hues coming through the creamy-white glaze, you get a pretty iconic Momoyama Shino look.

 

Finally, the foot on the bowl you posted does not exhibit the type of clay I would usually expect to see revealed on the foot of a Period piece. 

 

Have a look at the images here.  These are all Period Shino chawan.  One of them might be recognizable as a National Treasure piece.  Compare the clay, the foot, the glaze, and the form of the bowl, the rim, etc... on this piece to the bowl in question.  Big, BIG difference.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[PietroParis]

Thanks a lot Steve and Evan for your detailed explanations, which I would summarize as "too cheap and too new"

 

That website has been something of a mystery to me for a while: they have a seemingly endless stream of suspiciously cheap "big name" bowls that are snapped up within hours after they go on sale. I too had noticed the one by Chojiro and thought that it was absurd. I did however buy a shino bowl from them, supposedly made by a 20th-century potter, Kato Kageaki (more details in this post):

 

 

Incidentally, the decoration recalls the famous Unohanagaki in Steve's post above. I cannot swear on the authenticity, but I've been using it every weekend to drink tea and I am quite pleased with it

 

Cheers, Pietro

[sir_g_of_fields]

Hello! I have recently purchased a shino chawan that is claimed to be from the Momoyama period. I found this thread on Google. Would someone be so kind as to comment on the odds that the piece I purchased is as old as claimed? Thank you!

 

[ROKUJURO]

Sergey,

It is impossible to make a safe claim with only photos to look at. This CHAWAN should be seen in hand by an expert.

If it was really a MOMOYAMA item, it would have been very, very expensive. I just googled a mid to late EDO JIDAI CHAWAN (E-SHINO as yours) offered for almost $ 3.000.--......

[sir_g_of_fields]

Thank you for your response. I live in Seattle - do you happen to know how to find an expert in these matters?

[ROKUJURO]

Well Sergey,

this is a sword forum, so don't expect too much! But if you read the upper part of this thread, you will find that we have some avid ceramic collectors as well. Pietro, Steven or Evan might well know experts near you!