A Pretty Crude Late War Gunto.

[MacTheWhopper]

Hello everyone. I wanted to show some pictures of a rough shape crude and what I believe to be a later war gunto. I'd like to see what the board thinks about. I have dawson's book but the late war guntos seem to all have the wooden handles. The blade looks to be very crudely made. What do you guys think about it and are swords like these referenced in dawson's book and i just didn't see it? Any information is always appreciated.

[Bruce Pennington]

Kenny,

 

My tendency with these, and we've seen a few lately, same style, is to lean toward - Chinese fake. I've never seen a "late war" officer or NCO gunto as crudely make as these. Can you post a clear picture of the blade tip?

 

The only legit late-war 98's I've seen come with the style I'm posting a pic of.

 

I could be wrong.

 

[IJASWORDS]

Sorry to say not a late war Japanese sword. A few late war examples attached. Even late war last ditch swords have some style..

[MacTheWhopper]

I was a little worried that it might be a fake due to it being so crudely made. If fake though, I am covered but definitely want to take better precautions on swords. 

[Ganko]

Looks like a Chinese Knock-off.

[Bruce Pennington]

Well they got the blade tip down pretty close! Usually they get the tip wrong.

 

I don’t see anything else, though that looks Japanese.

[Stephen]

Ill have egg rolls with that!

[16k]

Could also be something with age, made to look Japanese, on one of the many islands. Not Japanese though. They even got the ito wrapping wrong.

[vajo]

No chance to be Japanese. 

[Dave R]

 The single biggest give-away of a Chinese fake is the tang, and sadly this has all the usual give-aways of the type.

[PNSSHOGUN]

At best it's an Island sword.

[paul griff]

Hello,

Not a total loss..Looks like island made for souvenir hungry troops at the end of the war....The Ito has been added recently but the rest of the bits seem to have some age to them...If you look at the metal fittings they all have the look and patina of “island brass”,same looks old as does the leather and finally the blade is terrible but shaped correctly ie kissaki ( tip of blade ).....

Regards,

Paul..

[lonely panet]

Not a island sword, just a poorly aged chinese/indo fake.

 

The island sword myth is missunderstood by many, when really it was more accurately skilled service man making fakes to sell to GIs for profit. I had a family friend how was a black Smith, served on kokoda and the bull track. Who did just this.

[Dave R]

 By every definition "Island Swords" are not Nihonto. They are WW2 militaria at best, and you should not expect an informed discussion of such here, which is fair enough....  There are other sword collectors sites.

 

The best of them are swords made for serving IJA officers needing a sword, but no longer on the supply line, and having them locally made by skilled but non Japanese smiths. 

 

 The other legitimate contenders are those made for subject and collaborator troops and officers, also by local skilled smiths.

 

And then there are the souvenirs, made by CB's or other allied support units,(or local bazaar traders) to be sold to  follow up and other non front line troops who wanted a sure-nuff samury sword to take home.

 

 Below this in the pecking order are post war fakes.... still being made and sold to the unwary.

 

Opinions are divided as to whether these categories are collectable, or worth discussing, but for better or worse this site is fairly unanimous that they are not!

[David W Wakeham]

HI All

i was given this sword to me its a crude local made for the occupying troops to take home as a souvenir.

or a late was NCOs   has anybody any views.

 

David 

 

 

[George KN]

Hi David, I'm no expert, but those fittings do look like post-war souvenir to me.

 

However, I can't completely write off the blade itself. It's always hard to tell from pictures alone, but I can see what look like ware (https://www.Japanese...rdindex.com/kizu.htm) in the steel:

 

This is odd for a reproduction/souvenir/fake (or at least something I haven't seen before), and in places it even looks like there *could* be a hamon:
 

 

However, the shinogi (non sharpened back bit of the blade) feels a bit thin for its size, and I also can't see a yokote (dividing line for the tip of the blade), which doesn't bode well though. 

Being able to see the nakago/tang would be a real help here if possible.

Also, welcome to the forum!

[Polaria]

My notes:

• Koshirae doesn't look right at all, even for late war production.
• Tsuba is decorated, but the decorations are wrong in style and subject.
• Saya fittings do not look right at all.
• The wood hilt has wrong cross hatching.

I cannot say about the blade and there are better experts for that here, but nothing in the koshirae looks genuine.

[Bruce Pennington]

It strikes me as an effort by collaboration sword makers to make an NCO sword.  Collaborators had NCO ranks, too.  It's just something we've never seen discussed.  Nor do we know enough about, nor have enough wartime photos of, to base real decisions on.

 

We all know what the nakago will likely look like, but you ought to pop the tsuka off on the chance there is a Java mei.  If so, it locks it in.  Without it, we are back to speculation.

[David W Wakeham]

Thank you for your help George Mikko and Bruce. The tsuka is held on by two brass menuki  I will have to drill out. I am a bit reluctant to do.

I also have not seen any photos of this type of sword. Like Bruce put it a local made collaborators or  for Korean guards

[Bruce Pennington]

33 minutes ago, David W Wakeham said:

  I will have to drill out.

Ok, then not necessary.  Only do it if it's something you want to pursue.