An exercise for a wet and stormy day

[CSM101]

Maybe Gassan. I once saw something like that in a Ise Masazane blade (Sengo school).

 

Uwe G.

[Vermithrax16]

Just so there is a masame hada example in this thread:

[Rivkin]

I feel like the guesses are converging of sorts...

The blade in question is by Soshu Masahiro. Its Muromachi, but on the exact generation there is some difference in opinions.

I doubt were it not signed it would have been judged appropriately, though the ara nie does suggest someone Soshu related I guess.

 

Kirill R.

[Rivkin]

Well, here is another brain teaser, equally malicious to the last one.

Except here the work is a very typical style for the smith, though I particularly like the quality of this example. It is signed. The smith belongs to the school which is for some reason one of the most often referred to by its name on the forum! Actually I did a few searches and it came out as the most often referred to, but by a small margin I did not try very hard - so one of the most. Anyone cares to make a guess?

 

 

[CSM101]

My guess is : Hizen Kuni Tadayoshi.

 

Uwe G.

[Bazza]

Hmmmm - I once saw a blade very similar to this with the chikei.  Mutsu no Kami Tadayoshi, Hizen sandai, though the tateware in the hi seems atypical for the meticulous workmanship of this smith.

 

BaZZa.

[Rivkin]

I also would probably guess Hizen, but it was mentioned only 220 times or so. This school is much more popular.

 

Kirill R.

[CSM101]

Please, don´t tell me that it is a Rai.

 

Uwe G.

[16k]

I’d be tempted to say Rai too.

[Bazza]

More hmmmmm - I once saw an impressive Bizen sword in suguha - maybe Osafune Bizen???

 

BaZZa.

[David Flynn]

Kanebo.

[Bryce]

G'day Kirill,

 

What about something like Mino Senjuin?

 

Cheers,

Bryce

[Rivkin]

The gentleman in question is Bungo Yukinaga.

 

Kirill R.

[16k]

For a moment, when you said “ the school most often referred to ", Bungo crossed my mind. Then I thought about the school's reputation and thought it looked too good. Proof that we often have misconceptions induced by traditional views on a school.

[paulb]

I dont think I would have got there in a million years. I also think it proves two things

1. Every school were capable of producing good work

2. For a school like Bungo to produce work copying  so many different traditions they had to be technically very good.

Thank you Kirill it is an interesting piece.

[Jean]

 Bungo has been a very good school and had very good smiths. Should .they have had access to good tamahagane, they could have matched Hizen

[Rivkin]

I feel there is a huge difference between mumei swords attributed to Bungo and those signed by Kambun era smiths. Motoyuki was a very decent Soshu smith, Yakinaga did impressive work in suguha, there was even a good done Bizen a-la Ishido Korekazu. The attributed pieces however tend to be...

 

Kirill R.

[16k]

The attributed pieces however tend to be...

 

Kirill R.

Maybe because they are not!

 

I mean, there is a real tendency to attribute mediocre mumei pieces almost automatically to Bungo. A mumei piece could come from anywhere and a swordsmith who deliberately skipped signing is work because he felt it was bad probably produced something far from his usual work. Bungo has become the dumpster name for anything mediocre. Honestly, most of those I heave seen were far from deserving that bad reputation.

[Bazza]

Thank you Kiril for a most engaging challenge.

 

The mumei Shinshinto dumpster seems to be Hosokawa Masachika, and in Koto Mihara...

 

BaZZa.

[Hoshi]

"Typical for the smith" that was a real curve-ball you threw there! AFAIK there isn't a single Juyo attributed to him, perhaps in mistake, as this is clearly a fine hada. I don't think anyone of us have any experience with this smith, and common Bungo just isn't very good. The only Bungo I'm vaguely familiar with is Yukihira and the kantei is very easy when ubu. 

 

Also "Most cited school on NMB" I would have put my money on SEKI MINO, or UDA, in terms of frequency. But perhaps it you take the whole history of NMB Bungo comes up on top. 

 

That Kantei was very tough! Make an easier one! It's a fun game.  

 

Here is my contribution. Something different, much easier! And move all the way to the opposite of Yamashiro hada. For some vets here this will be too easy to get a good answer (there are 2-3 "good" answers). 

[paulb]

Not sure if it is easy but in line with principals of kantei it exhibits typical features of period, school and smith.

 

Description: A shinogi-zukuri wakazashi

Configuration:
Sugata:  Shinogi-zukuri, iori-mune. Ubu with nagamei

Nagasa: 39.3cm.                Sori: 0.6cm.

Motohaba: 2.9 cm.              Sakihaba: 2cm.               Kasane: 0.6cm

 

Hada: fine Itame with Nagare and O-hada with ji-nie and chikei. There is a patchy midare utsuri and masame in the shinogi-ji. There are areas of plain bright steel within the jihada.

Hamon: Midare with billowing but compact choji and isolated areas of togari. The hamon is nioi-guchi interspersed with ko-nie. There valleys of the choji broaden in to small pockets of ko-nie. There is a great deal of activity within the hamon in the form of sunagashi and nie
Nakago: Ubu with 2  mekugi-ana. Kengo nakagojiri and sujikai yasurimei (with slight keisho)
Mei: There is a Naga-mei .
Boshi. Hakikake beard with profuse Nie. Ko maru with narrow return

 

[16k]

Okay, I’m way out of my league in those Kantei games, but how about Mino Senjuin school?

[paulb]

Hi Jp

I assume you are responding to the one I posted.

If so:

First look at the shape- it will give you an indication of period

 

Then read the description there are a number of pointers in there that would lead you somewhere else.

I think the togari and sunagashi are making you jump in one direction and you have considered what else it is telling you.

[Rivkin]

Here is my contribution. Something different, much easier! And move all the way to the opposite of Yamashiro hada. For some vets here this will be too easy to get a good answer (there are 2-3 "good" answers). 

 

Looks like Etchu. Maybe Tametsugu.

 

Kirill R.

[CSM101]

I go for Norishige.

 

 

Uwe G.

[paulb]

I would also go for Norishige

[Gakusee]

For Chris: Norishige student or school. Could be Tametsugu

For Paul: various elements make it sound more Mino to me (hakikake, a lot of nie that I can see, sunagashi, various togari), even though from a distance the hamon looks Bizen and some of the midare utsuri and hamon and choji and you mention nioi actually point to Muromachi Bizen. On balance, your description is more Bizen but I would need to look at it in hand

[Rivkin]

Hi Jp

I assume you are responding to the one I posted.

If so:

First look at the shape- it will give you an indication of period

 

Then read the description there are a number of pointers in there that would lead you somewhere else.

I think the togari and sunagashi are making you jump in one direction and you have considered what else it is telling you.

 

I will be a little argumentative here - your other photographs are very good. Here its very hard to say anything without seeing the boshi at least, a little bit more of ha would also help. The shape is dead ringer kambun I guess. Hakikake is common in Horikawa school, which however tends to come with Keicho or Kanei shape, which its not. One of the reasons I don't like and don't do shinto kantei is that it requires one to memorize tons of small things with little to no structure. We are looking for someone who did hakikake and utsuri, a very rare combination. Can be Edo Ishido. Can be Dewa no Daijo  Kunimichi. Very different styles, but without seeing a bit more of those togari-or-choji, hard to say at least for me.

 

Kirill R.

[Hoshi]

All good answers. Michael is closest with "Student of Norishige" and I think you've all guessed right the Etchu influence here. Tametsugu also possible. 

 

Attribution is Kachu Sanekage. Traditionally understood as a student of Norishige. 

 

When the Matsukawa hada is less masterful, the next best guess is generally Sanekage, which can be understood as "Not quite Norishige". 

[paulb]

Thanks Chris

It was a good image and very distinctive hada. I dont feel too bad going for Norishige. In a shoji kantei it is normal for an attribution to a student or master of the smith concerned to be counted as correct.

Kirill

I don't think you are being argumentative and thank you for the compliment regarding my other images. These are somewhat older and I agree not as clear. However that does lead to another point. The original post put up some time ago was not an attempt at kantei it was an exercise to try and identify different types of hada. Subsequently you and Chris posted images of short sections of swords and invited people to attribute them to a smith/school. This has been good fun and a useful learning exercise but it isn't kantei.

 

You cannot kantei a blade based on an image of 5 or 6 cm of blade.

The basic requirements for a kantei are (or were):

An image of the whole blade or at least top and bottom sections as far as the ha-machi. Dimensions including thickness.

Ideally the blade should be ubu and signed

Finally it should be representative of the school or tradition. Odd ball pieces are almost impossible to kantei and as a teaching tool all they tell you is that there are exceptions they don't reinforce any of the general facts about smith school or tradition.

In a shoji kantei such as those published in the NBTHK magazine you are presented with an oshigata of the top and lower parts of the blade and a description which includes detail of hada hamon and nakago as these are not visible within the oshigata.

 

Regarding the piece above you are right the images are not as good as some I have been able to produce recently. They were taken some time ago and I was lazy and used them for this rather than taking more. Sorry.

However that is also why I supplied a full description in line with normal kantei procedure. (I should have tried to include an image of the boshi but in its absence did describe it). I thought It offered as much detail as one would normally get in a shoji kantei.

All of the features described are identified as being characteristic of this period, school and smith. 

I have attached an image of the boshi (my apologies it doesn't show the detail too clearly but it does show the overall shape) and some more showing hamon