What school has the best iron?

[lonely panet]

Here's a topic that popped into my head after a email from a friend.

 

Who are the top ten school for the best iron.

 

You may ask what the term "best" means ??

Construction, patina, colour of iron or Evan resistance to corrosion.

 

I'll throw it open, as normally I only study akasaka and am ignorant to other schools

[ROKUJURO]

......Who are the top ten schools for the best iron?....Construction, patina, colour of iron or even resistance to corrosion....

What about resistance to blow impact?

Material mass, dmensions, design and construction varied a lot over the centuries and depended on use in battle, but also on fashion. I don't know about a research having been done on TSUBA in this respect.  

If you say HIGO looks and feels smooth, solid and compact, that doesn't tell you anything at all about 'iron quality'. When AKASAKA SUKASHI TSUBA were made with their typical three-layer, lightweight and delicate construction, they may have been a good and well fitting type of guard for a KATANA in those times. Fighting style will certainly have influenced the construction of TSUBA as well. 

[Ken-Hawaii]

I'd vote for Tembo.

[Steve Waszak]

Hmmm... "Best" is a tricky term here.  Are you thinking mostly in terms of aesthetics or of more objectively practical considerations (corrosion resistance, ability to withstand blows, etc...)?  Of course, these needn't be entirely mutually exclusive.   

 

For my money, while Higo metal is renowned for its aesthetic magnificence, it is the steel guards from Owari Province that impress the most.  The forging, hammering, finishing, color, and patina found in works made by the early (genuine) Nobuiye, Yamakichibei, Hoan, and Sadahiro tsubako, together with early Owari sukashi and Kanayama tsuba outclasses all others (in my opinion only, of course ).  In the years I've spend studying and collecting almost exclusively early steel sword guards, my conclusions on this have only become firmer. 

 

Other excellent traditions include Ko-Shoami works, as well as early Saotome and Tembo, and some of those tsuba called "Ko-Tosho" and "Ko-Katchushi," but none of these can match the best from Owari, in my view.

 

Again, "best" is a term that needs some clarification.  Without that, it's difficult to proceed with the discussion. 

[mas4t0]

For clarity, are you really asking for people's favourite iron (as opposed to the best) along with an explanation of why they have those preferences?

[Ken-Hawaii]

Well, putting the question under Tosogu should give a hint.

[mas4t0]

Well, putting the question under Tosogu should give a hint.

I didn't miss that we're in the Tosogu sub-forum...

 

I get the impression that rather than a debate over the meaning of 'best' (which this has become) the intention of the thread was to ask what people's preferences were (with regards to different schools) and why.

[Ken-Hawaii]

That's fair. My rationale for Tembo (& Saotome) is that they were made made by sword tosho, so the steel should be as strong & resilient as a blade of that time.

[Blazeaglory]

Kotetsu

[lonely panet]

This is just about tsuba iron. Not nohonto iron

[Curran]

Best gnarly river sand unrefined iron:      Hoan, Ono, some Owari

 

Best refined iron + secret sauce patina:   Hayashi, then maybe Kamiyoshi.  I also think Shimizu/Jingo is a very different beast, but close contender.

 

The variables are largely refined vs crude and very formula patina secret sauce vs whatever you might call natural patina promotion.

Ford can probably "edumacate" us at great length here, but I'd rather he rest up and not get involved in an extremely subjective debade.

If he wants, he can correct my notions of patina on the Hoan, Ono, and Owari.

[Pete Klein]

I agree with Steve W. but strongly add Shimizu Jinbei and 'early' Jingo generations.

[Blazeaglory]

This is just about tsuba iron. Not nohonto iron

What's a "nohonto"?

 

But thanks for clarifying what this thread is "just" about.

[Steve Waszak]

They say a picture is worth a thousand words...  Thought I'd throw a few thousand words into the conversation...

 

#1  Shodai (Hanare-mei) Nobuie

#2  Shodai Nobuie

#3  Nidai (Futoji-mei) Nobuie

#4  Nidai Nobuie

#5  Yamasaka Kichibei

#6  Yamasaka Kichibei

#7  Yamasaka Kichibei

#8  Meijin-Shodai Yamakichibei

#9  Shodai Sadahiro

#10  Shodai Hoan

#11  Nidai Yamakichibei

 

 

[Brian]

[lonely panet]

What's a "nohonto"?

But thanks for clarifying what this thread is "just" about.

A nohonto, is a combination of fat fingers, an tiny phone and no spell check

[suketaka]

@Hamfish :laughing:

[kissakai]

Great examples Steve

[ROKUJURO]

In my opinion, none of the comments above could explain or give a proof of what "good iron" in TSUBA is, and I am still waiting that someone can explain what the technical requirements of steel for TSUBA might be. Furthermore, I would like to know how one can guess the qualities of steel in a given TSUBA by looking at it or handling it.

[Steve Waszak]

Jean,

 

Hmmm... "technical requirements"?  This term would have to point to practical applications such as the basic purpose of a sword guard, no?  If so, a distinction needs to be made, as I said in my first post, between such practical applications, on the one hand, and aesthetic purposes/considerations, on the other.  Trying to combine these or failing to distinguish between them will lead to a convoluted discussion, I think. 

 

My recent post had entirely to do with the latter -- aesthetics.  That the tsuba I posted images of might or would also satisfy effectively "technical demands" was not my aim in posting them.  So in addressing the question of what a "good iron" tsuba is, for purposes of this discussion, I am mentioning only those aspects or features which contribute (in my opinion) to making a given tsuba "good" as far as its iron is concerned.  And I have already mentioned them:  elements such as masterful forging and hammering, application of yakite-shitate, the presence of sensitively realized tekkotsu, the color of the metal, and the patina the steel takes on, ALL contribute to what makes an iron/steel tsuba "good."  And "good" in my eyes, only, I must emphasize, as we are talking largely, if not entirely about taste, from a necessarily subjective perspective.  Again, when looking at the aesthetic aspect, subjectivity rules; when looking at the "technical requirements" aspect -- the practical applications/considerations -- things can be much more if not wholly objective. 

 

For those who think that tekkotsu is clumsy, or that a yakite finish creates a "smeary muddiness" on the surface, or that anything but a perfectly polished surface comes across as clunky and uncouth, tsuba such as those made by Hayashi Matashichi would certainly be "better" than those coming out of Owari.  And such a viewpoint is, needless to say, perfectly valid.  But again, we're talking about TASTE, and taste is a very personal, and obviously subjective thing.  So your post above is one that I find a little confusing to try to address, since it seems you're alluding to the possibility of arriving at objective criteria for a category of assessment that is dependent on subjective appreciation.

 

I have to run here just now, but later, I can provide images of what I would consider to be beautifully-forged steel, which for me is one of the chief criteria for what makes a tsuba good/great. 

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[vajo]

I would say any forged iron is better than cast iron.

The rest is only art and taste.

For myself i prefer the higo lines.

[lonely panet]

In my opinion, none of the comments above could explain or give a proof of what "good iron" in TSUBA is, and I am still waiting that someone can explain what the technical requirements of steel for TSUBA might be. Furthermore, I would like to know how one can guess the qualities of steel in a given TSUBA by looking at it or handling it.

Jean has said what i was thinking, but more importantly made it readable. Have i asked the question thAt is the hardest to answer.

 

By removing all opinions on tastes and aesthistics. What is the "best iron" Ko tosho, yagu, hayashi????

[mas4t0]

The 'best Iron' from a purely metallurgical/ chemical stand-point would be the purest, most homogeneous Iron with the least impurities. The closest to Electrolytic Iron.

 

This would not be the 'best Iron for tsuba' (if we have any aesthetic sensibilities) as the plate would likely be plain, flat and featureless.

 

There is of course no way to assess the mechanical properties of the Iron through handling. Even with suitable equipment we could most likely only measure surface roughness and specific weight without using destructive testing techniques.

[Brian]

Agree with most of what Steve said, and also want to add that poor steel won't take on a uniform patina. So how it looks does indeed have some part of whether the steel is "good" or not.
Bit rushed, so can't expand on that now, but it's just a quick thought.

[ROKUJURO]

HAMFISH: .....You may ask what the term "best" means ??  Construction, patina, colour of iron or even resistance to corrosion....

Well, with the criteria of the OP, it is clear.- at least to me - that not only aesthetical aspects had been asked for. But as Steve expressed, those are the only ones we can really comment on, the more as most of the visible surface effects are not made by forging alone. Chasing, cutting, sawing, chiselling, filing and punching are only a few techniques, chemical erosion ('YAKITE KUSARASHI') and others may be added.

I often ask myself what people believe (or know about forging) when they talk about 'good hammerwork' on a TSUBA, when it seems clear that the hammer was only involved in the forming of the basic plate or the MIMI. 

The mythical 'YAKITE SHITATE' process is also often mentioned, but nobody can give a technical explanation how it could be done. I think it is safe to say that it cannot be performed by heating up a steel plate to near melting temperature. That does not work, and so I believe that the term only describes the appearance of a bumpy but "smooth like melting ice" surface without giving a hint to the execution of this process. It is probably like the term 'MOKUME'; it is not wood, but in some aspects it appears like wood. 

Mark, the "best" iron is not necessarily the purest one. This is of course the most ductile, but as said above, not all details are made by forging, so this is not relevant as long as the steel is not hardened. Many TSUBA (I mentioned AKASAKA, but think also of MOKUME and TSUBA with TEKKOTSU) schools worked in a composite (sometimes layering) technique, so not at all homogeneous material.

Looking at iron TSUBA, I cannot separate the technical requirements of the basic material and how it was worked  from the design, and all aspects - aesthetic and others - are interrelated with the purpose of a TSUBA on a Japanese swordblade. 

But this is another subject of discussion, and there are opinions of 'experts' naming the thrusting movement versus others who see TSUBA as a protective handguard like in most other cutures. 

[mas4t0]

Mark, the "best" iron is not necessarily the purest one. This is of course the most ductile, but as said above, not all details are made by forging, so this is not relevant as long as the steel is not hardened.

Greater Ductility goes hand-in-hand with greater Fracture Toughness. I would presume that Copper offers sufficient Hardness for the needs of a Tsuba, and pure Iron is both significantly Harder than Copper and Tougher than impure Iron. If we need additional Strength then we want higher Carbon content, but would still be best served by the purest steel.

 

In this example, I'm looking at this from the perspective of Mechanical Properties, and I'm probably optimising for the wrong things. That's the point though, the "best" will depend on what our criteria are.

 

I would presume that in the end it all comes down to aesthetics. An Iron tsuba is not an engineered product and does not require the material to be well optimised in order to adequately perform its function.

[ROKUJURO]

....An Iron tsuba is not an engineered product and does not require the material to be well optimised in order to adequately perform its function.

Well, YAGYU RENYASAI would not have shared your opinion, as he believed that his life depended to a certain degree on the functionality of his TSUBA. 

[mas4t0]

Well, YAGYU RENYASAI would not have shared your opinion, as he believed that his life depended to a certain degree on the functionality of his TSUBA.

 

On the other hand, Uesugi Kenshin would likely have disagreed with this point of view.

 

I wasn't meaning to imply that Tsuba didn't serve an important function, but that they don't require the finest Iron in order to serve their function admirably.

[Ford Hallam]

So Yagyu Renusai pounded tsuba and Yagyu tsuba were scraped to finish them according ti the famous text, I forget the proper name....

 

If overly hard/brittle metal is 'pounded' it's likely going to break.

 

And only a fool would scrape hardened steel. So I would assume that the tsuba Renusai was supposedly pounding were unhardened....or the whole story is just uninformed folklore.

 

Scraping was, and still is in classical studios, a very efficient technique for finishing metal.  But, again....somewhat pointless to even attempt on hardened steel.

[Ford Hallam]

I wont even try to start a discussion about iron quality and any imagined connection with patina and surface appearance ....