Kata-kiri bori

[Steves87]

Hello all,

 

I was looking through an old NMB thread a while back regarding the differences between 'good and bad' Nanako and was wondering if there is a similar thread about Kata-kiri bori?

I couldn't hit a thread with the search button, but im trying to learn if good and bad examples of Kata-kiri bori are more from the actual carving itself or from an artistic/subject matter point of view?

I'm hoping someone can please help

cheers

[mas4t0]

I would presume that it would always have to be both.

 

Either one can let the piece down. You could either have an excellent composition, let down by poor carving, or you could have exquisite technical skill but showing a lifeless, static subject and a forced or otherwise poor composition.

 

These are not naturalistic portraits, they're contrived designs, so the composition is a key aspect of the artwork. Even with a landscape or a portrait, the choice of perspective is vitally important along with how the artist adapts the work to fit within the constraints imposed by the medium without the work feeling as though it's being constrained in any way by them.

 

This can however be less of an issue in the Japanese tradition as it's accepted practice to render a pre-existing composition in your own hand and isn't derided as a 'copy' or 'reproduction' in the same way as it would be in the European artistic tradition.

 

The quality of the carving itself is equally vital.

 

For the sake of study pieces, if a decision had to be made I would favor technique over composition as it gives more insight into the technical aspects and proper form of the work.

[Steves87]

Thank you for your reply Mark, the feeling I had was that the two go hand in hand, but I constantly find myself being surprised in this large field.

I think I understand what you mean between western and eastern artworks, this is something I'm still learning, but understanding relatively easily.

 

I also agree I would rather good carving over good composition, however, I find myself only seeing what is considered good carving and I truly cannot say I have seen 'bad carving', this causes doubt about what I think I know so far.

[mas4t0]

Where are you looking Stephen? I haven't seen fit to archive any, but I've come across plenty of poor carving. I think it's good to keep in mind that it's a continuum rather than a binary.

 

With European art you didn't really see the delineation of composition and technical skill that we often see in Japanese pieces.

 

It might be worth checking out some different renditions of the 'Pietà' to really illustrate the point; as one of the most important subjects in Christian art there are quite a few of them. You'll notice immediately that Michelangelo's works (both of them) stand out from the others in terms of both composition and execution.

[Steves87]

Thanks Mark, possibly that is why I have not seen 'bad examples', I'm looking from a binary point of view... I'm looking at magnified stills of individual lines a lot of the time, this is the first thing I am going to stop doing.

 

Great example of Pietà, I know of the artwork at the Vatican, I did a quick image search and didn't realise the existence of some of the other examples.

[Brian]

Poor:



Mediocre:



VERY good:



 

[Pete Klein]

Sorry, but 'SUPERLATIVE'!  That tsuba is Tokubetsu Juyo BTW.

[mas4t0]

Any estimates on price ranges for each piece Brian?

[Brian]

As Pete said.....that one is priceless.
As for the others, I wouldn't want to put a value on them, for various reasons not least the fact that I don't know who owns them. But the differences should be obvious.

[mas4t0]

Thanks Brian. I expected that response.

[Brian]

A few more I have gathered over time (pics...not all the tsuba)
Let's see what people think of them.

 

[terminus]

  On 1/24/2020 at 4:17 PM, mas4t0 said:

Any estimates on price ranges for each piece Brian?

That last tsuba is the most famous example of Unno Shomin's work, probably can't even leave Japan, priceless...but if one day somehow it went for sale...definitely high 6 figures (maybe 7? just I've never seen a tosogu hit 7 before). Here's more info about that particular tsuba: https://markussesko.com/2013/04/05/from-the-life-of-unno-shomin/

 

This is my favorite kozuka of all time by Otsuki Mitsuoki, it's just sublime: https://collections.mfa.org/objects/12321/kozuka-with-design-of-a-minogame?ctx=7ea43fd3-2b5d-4a35-a13b-f470262e5208&idx=5

 

Is this kozuka an example of kata-kiri bori?

 

 

[Brian Ayres]

These are papered and received 76 points which is pretty respectable.

[Tanto54]

I remember Ford hinting years ago that he had a theory that he was working on about katakiribori and the Yokoya School - perhaps he will share his thoughts with us now.  It's commonly believed that one of these carvers developed this technique to mimic the Sumie (charcoal ink paintings) of his literati friends.

 

I especially like the katakiribori work of Yokoya Somin and Soyo II.  To me, the crouching tiger in the fuchi below is an excellent example of a masterful composition, the use of space and compression of the tiger makes it look like it is ready to leap off of the sword.  Most unlike the standard Western composition of centering the image within a border.  As for technique, I think that great katakiribori is done with a steady hand and without hesitation.  In Soyo's work, the lines are smooth and show no start and stop chisel marks (except where it adds to the effect).  In poor carving, you will often see the start and stop marks of the chisel and awkward changes in line width and depth.

 

Great Composition and Carving:

 

Bad Carving (in my opinion) - note the start and stop marks especially in the curves...

[Andi B.]

  On 1/25/2020 at 1:49 AM, terminus said:

That last tsuba is the most famous example of Unno Shomin's work, probably can't even leave Japan,...

 

Great tsuba! But I assume this piece is in a non Japanese private collection...

[Steves87]

Thank you for the examples everyone I think I'm generally getting it.

The sitting Tiger made my heart skip a beat... wow.... Just wow...

[Pete Klein]

This F/K by Ichinomiya Nagatsune was once mine and now resides with a very close friend.  Fine carving and inlay:

 

 

[Tanto54]

Here's a Shishi tsuba to compare to the one that Brian posted.

 

[Steves87]

  On 1/24/2020 at 5:26 PM, Brian said:

A few more I have gathered over time (pics...not all the tsuba)

Let's see what people think of them.

 

 

I really Like the first one out of the three

[Brian]

  On 1/28/2020 at 4:16 AM, Steves87 said:

I really Like the first one out of the three

I should hope so..it is another masterpiece that would likely be priceless. Not sure if in a museum or collection.

[Bazza]

I offer these Yanagawa tiger menuki as another example of kata-kiri-bori.

 

BaZZa.

 

[Nikanoru]

This is katachibori or irebori - form or shape carving.

[Kurikata]

Surprised that nobody mentioned Somin school . Please find herewith a shishi dog from Yokotani Somin school (Attributed to Yakatoni Muneoki)

[Bazza]

  On 1/28/2020 at 9:42 AM, Nikanoru said:

This is katachibori or irebori - form or shape carving.

I was referring to the stripes on the tigers' bodies.  Is this not katakiribori???

 

BaZZa.

[Stephen]

One i dreamed of bidding on.

https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/n397697994?

[Steves87]

I like it Stephen, Id consider it myself if I had the spare funds!

I notice some of the rock carvings on the right side have the 'start stop marks as per George's earlier post. Im assuming the occasional carving with these is ok and perhaps unavoidable, but at what point/quantity of carves, would these be unacceptable? I hear the magic number for Tsuba with lost Zogan is 10%, would this be similar?

[Nikanoru]

  On 1/28/2020 at 10:06 PM, Bazza said:

I was referring to the stripes on the tigers' bodies. Is this not katakiribori???

 

BaZZa.

Yep, “stripes” katakiribori, “hair” kebori

[Nikanoru]

Couple of examples from my collection

[Tanto54]

Hi Stephen K,

 

I think that the Shishi Tsuba that Stephen posted is an example of where the artist is using the "start and stop" chisel marks in the outline of the rocks for artistic effect (a rugged, rocky look), so I think that it was intended and is OK in this case.  I think that because it doesn't look like there are many such marks in the other areas of carving especially the spirals of hair in the mane and tail.  By the way, in my opinion, how well an artist makes a concentric katakiribori curves or spirals is another hallmark of a true master.  While I really like the tsuba that Stephen posted, can you see the difficulty he is having keeping an even flow with his tail spirals?  The katakiribori spirals and concentric curves on true Soyo II, Somin and Natsuo work are inevitably smooth and even.

 

[Steves87]

Thank you for pointing out the spirals George, although I did notice it, I did not take that perspective on them or the 'start-stop' carving of the rockwork.