The latest from Mr Komiya....

[Dave R]

It's not like this will cause any upset...  http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/sword-terms-spelling-bee-ija-way-755564/

[16k]

No wonder Japan wasn’t called “ the Middle Kingdom!” 

[Bruce Pennington]

I've joined the conversation!

[Shamsy]

I've started wearing my pants correctly.

[Dave R]

  On 1/18/2020 at 9:29 PM, Shamsy said:

I've started wearing my pants correctly.

 

 I always have!

[Bruce Pennington]

For those who never click on links, what Dave is pointing to is a document Nick uncovered showing the official IJA declaration of how to write (romanji) common Japanese kanji in "engish" sounds. There is no "tsu" or "shi", rather "tu" and "si". So the WWII IJA would have us pronounce tsuka and tsuba as "tuba" and "tuka". Koshirae would be "kosirae." etc.

 

Does anyone know how they actually said these words in Japan in WWII?

 

Nick links a wiki that expains the evolution of romaji systems: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Japanese

which helps us understand why there would be a difference of opinion at all on such pronounciations.

[Bazza]

  On 1/18/2020 at 9:42 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

So the WWII IJA would have us pronounce tsuka and tsuba as "tuba" and "tuka". Koshirae would be "kosirae." etc.

Does anyone know how they actually said these words in Japan in WWII?

They would have said Tsuba Tsuka...  tuba and tuka are spelt in one of three systems for rendering Japanese.in roumaji (not romanji).  I used to have an intimate knowledge of these, but time flows on...

 

The system most widely used today is the Hepburn or Revised Hepburn.  I recall the Monbusho system that used tuka and tuba, the idea being that as syllables in spoken Japanese have an equal length (apart form long vowels), so it should be in roumanisation - hence tu for tsu etc etc.  Here is a read for those inclined:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Japanese

 

BaZZa.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 1/18/2020 at 10:13 PM, Bazza said:

They would have said Tsuba Tsuka... I recall the Monbusho system that used tuka and tuba, the idea being that as syllables in spoken Japanese have an equal length (apart form long vowels), so it should be in roumanisation - hence tu for tsu etc etc.

BaZZa.

 

So, am I understanding that the IJA guys that devised the system depicted on Nick's post, prefered that the romanji were ballanced rather than that they sounded accurate? They valued the symetry more than the phonetic accuracy?

[Bazza]

More that the WRITTEN ruomaji were balanced.  The Japanese pronunciation would be the everyday usage.  It is in essence a practiced equivalence, much like learning another language.

 

BaZZa.

[Dave R]

 What I took away from the post, is that this was how the terms were to be written!  Pronunciation is a whole other  mine field......

[SteveM]

The native Japanese romanization systems prefer the visual and organizational symmetry over the accuracy of pronunciation. The reason for this is that the Japanese systems were designed primarily from a Japanese perspective, and the main function was to allow Japanese to easily render Japanese words into English spellings.  

 

The most immediately apparent effect is in the たちつてと line of kana, which in the Nihon/Kunrei system is written as ta, ti, tu, te, to, while in the Hepburn system it is written as ta, chi, tsu, te to. In the Nihon/Kunrei system, the emphasis is on ease and simplicity (one kana = two letters). Hence つ is rendered as tu, and ち is rendered as ti in the Japanese systems. The result is romanizations which cause inaccurate English pronunciations. In addition, it causes conflict and confusion when Japanese words end up with the same spelling as common English words. In other words, the brass band instrument "tuba" ends up with the same spelling but different pronunciation from the Japanese sword hand-guard.

 

So the Nihon/Kunrei system is fine for Japanese people up until about the end of elementary school, but after that, and when Japanese come into contact with foreign people, the deficiencies of the Nihon/Kunrei system become obvious, and the Hepburn system starts to get used, and indeed is used in most official documents and street signs and train station names, business documents etc.... Hence the name of one of the biggest firms in Japan is Mitsubishi instead of Mitubisi,  

 

What I think we see in the 1930's proclamation is the effect of a creeping nationalism, and a general feeling that Japanese needn't compromise to please foreigners. Rather than use the foreign-made Hepburn system, which allows for ease of use by foreigners, it becomes preferable in 1930s Japan to use the Nihon/Kunrei system, which is supposedly easier for Japanese to use, and that the onus of figuring out how to pronounce those words accurately is on the foreigners. 

[SAS]

Well, if i ever get to time travel, I now know where to kick an IJA soldier in his junk.