Info on Nobuie tsuba

[Ronin 47]

Hi can anyone give me any info on this nobuie style tsuba, such as age etc. Any info would be greatly appreciated thanks.

 

Austin

[Curran]

Hi.

 

Pine needles and grain bales. Autumn theme I would guess.

Looks like a nice tsuba. The shakudo plug is a bit on the funky side. Wonder if it were intended as a repair, as it seems off designwise without explanation.

 

The famous Nobuiye were often gimei (false signature). At first glance your signature doesn't look very likely to be one of them.

 

There were quite a handful of 'other' very legit Nobuiye of varying skill known often by their place of work name, such as Akasaka Nobuiye, Echizen Nobuiye, Kaga Nobuiye, Myochin Nobuiye, etc.. Their signatures are relatively documented. If you can get two or 3 very good images of the signature, I could give it a try to see if you have a match there. Be patient with me though, as work has been chaotic the last 2 weeks and doesn't look like it will stabalize soon.

 

Curran

[Ludolf Richter]

Hi,

here are some Mei examples.Ludolf

[Ronin 47]

Here is a close up of the mei. I'm afraid it wont be of much help do to the corrosion.

[Pete Klein]

Austin -- Looking at the mei I keep seeing the characteristics of the 'Hanare Mei' of the first Nobuie. There is a slight angulation change between the first and second characters but I have found variations such as this. On magnification of the plate I can see some vestiges of florets which were used by the first in his 'ji mon' patterns which decorated the plate. As there has been significant rust damage to this piece it is difficult to see fine details but if I might I would suggest this should be sent to the NBTHK for shinsa -- just in case. It may very well be gimei but if it were mine from what I can see in pictures I would feel it at least worth the chance. The shape troubles me a bit as it is uncommon but at the same time not impossible. I would prefer to see a finer mimi with kebori but this was not always used. No guarantees but you never know ---

[Pete Klein]

Hmm -- OK -- I swear I didn't see this before the above post. This tsuba was bugging me all day. After writing the above I pulled out Torigoye 'Tsuba Kanshoki' first Japanese edition and here it is. (The printed translation is by John Yumoto and the notes are by Robert E. Haynes). I will post the plate from the 1914 Mosle catalog next. I really hope this belongs to you as it is worth a rather good sum especially as it is out of the Mosle collection.

[Pete Klein]

Mosle:

[Ronin 47]

Yes Pete the tsuba belongs to me. I heard that the tsuba was possibly part of the Mosle collection, but I had no idea it was published in the 1914 Mosle catalog and in Dr.Torigoye 'Tsuba Kanshoki'. This is quit the revelation, my sincerest thanks to Pete and everybody else for their help in identifying this tsuba.

 

Austin

[Brian]

Damn, you're good Pete

Very glad to see tsuba like this one come out of the woodwork so to speak. This is why all those old auction catalogs are so important. Will you be sending it to shinsa?

 

Brian

[Ronin 47]

I might send it to Shinsa in the future, but at the moment I'm quiet content that Dr.Torigoye considered it a good enough example to include it in his book. By the way does anyone have the description of the tsuba from the 1914 Mosle catalog, also does anyone know out of the four Nobuie tsuba in the catalog is this the only one to appear in a Japanese reference?

 

Austin

[bluboxer]

Hello Austin,here is the discription from the Mosle catalog.

Alan

[Curran]

Wow. Nice fine Austin and good research by Peter.

Yes, Peter is definitely the man when it comes to research and also to Nobuiye. I don't own Mosle- just one of the gaps in my library. I didn't even think to look in Torigoye.

 

I didn't think the signature looked that good, but I liked the design and the workmanship nice if you could look past the current conditionto what it should look like restored a bit. I thought it more likely to be a side Nobuiye or a very nice plate someone had stuck a Nobuiye signature. I hope it can be carefully restored to better condition.

 

Given the Torigoye link, this one probably should go to NBTHK shinsa sooner or later. It isn't a guarantee by any stretch, but certainly ups the probability in my eyes. Again though, I'd default to Peter as "The Brain" on this one.

 

Curran

[Pete Klein]

I do know that #427 is in the Haynes #7 Catalogue but as for Japanese books I don't know.

 

Here's something to make us all a bit ill. From the Parke Bernet sale, April 22, 1948 (first Mosle sale of two):

 

Lot 65: Three Nobuie (1485 - 1564) traced with pine neeles, guord and vines, and dragon, two in old decorated black and 'nashiji' lacquer cases; and one signed Kaneiye, wrought with plum blossoms and bird. [lot]

 

Sold for $65.00

 

Waaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!

 

PS: I have been looking for the two 1932 Mosle Collection descriptive books and the 1933 Corrigenda et Addenda so if anyone knows of these for sale pleae contact me as I collect Mosle and Nobuie.

[Tim Evans]

Austin, I am always interested in the histories behind these things. Would you be willing to share some details on how you found it? Auction? Dealer? Another collector?

[Ronin 47]

Well I won't name names (no not because I'm secretive, but for other obvious reasons) but needless to say this tsuba was part of a lot of three Nobuie tsuba that most likely came from a pretty well know Asian art dealer/collector who was according to the consensus of me and others at the time selling off the remainder of the Mosle collection and other pieces that could not be sold privately, it was found out later the reason the remainder of these lots could not be sold privately was proably because they were most likely very well made later copies of very famous kinko smiths. Me and others came to this conclusion after the sale took place because we noticed a lot of the better stuff in the Mosle catalog was absent from the sale. A friend and teacher turned me on to the sale and I bought a couple of pieces including the three Nobuie which at that time of the sale were considered to be composed of two later copies and one very well made Azuchi-Momoyama Period tsuba in the style of Nobuie or maybe one of the later smiths. Well as we all now know this tsuba must have slipped pass said dealer/collector and many others because no one (including me) noticed it was illustrated in both the 1914 Mosle catalog and in Dr.Torigoye 'Tsuba Kanshoki'. I bought it simple because I'm fond of old iron tsuba and I thought the one in question and the other two were very well made examples, but I did not know at the time or immediately after that it was possible a real Nobuie until I decided to post it on the board for fun.

 

Austin

[Pete Klein]

Interesting how these things happen. This piece was put up for sale after everyone thought it to be gimei. I recognized the mei and was fortunate to be able to buy it quickly. It papered.

BTW -- if you look at the mei they are the hanare mei of the shodai.

[Henry Wilson]

I would just like to say to Austin congratulations and I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread. It has been quite exciting and I have learnt something.

[Rich T]

I would just like to say to Austin congratulations and I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread. It has been quite exciting and I have learnt something.

 

Yes, Pete did a lot of good work here that should be appreciated by all parties.

 

Well done mate.

 

Rich

[Brian]

Indeed, and very much appreciated. Gives one hope that with a lot of studying and knowing your subject, there are still finds out there.

Also great to see a good tsuba posted that isn't an eBay coaster

Been following that Akasaka thread on the Tosogu forum too....a brilliant thread well worth a frequent look.

Pete..if you are able to put it into words, would love to hear more about those "florets" you mentioned and used as a kantei point.

 

Brian

[Curran]

Peter,

 

I second Brian's motion. If you can put it into words, share a bit of what you are looking for on Nobuiye tsuba.

 

Small confession: I like your Waterplant Nobuiye very much. Back when there was debate whether or not it would paper, I thought about making you an aggressive offer on it. I felt it was the first time I'd seen an unpapered one that I was at least +65% sure was legit (My confidence interval on the famous Nobuiye is not very high, so please teach what you can. I'm much better at recognizing Akasaka, Echizen, Myochin Nobuiye). For reasons of NBTHK politics and current state of Hozon shinsa, I wasn't sure the Japanese would paper your Waterplant Nobuiye. I am very glad it did. Beautiful piece. One you must seen in person to appreciate why Nobuiye is praised.

 

Austin: I hope your find can be restored to proper condition like Peter's and that it passes NBTHK shinsa. Quite the story you have on it. Thanks for sharing.

 

Curran

[Pete Klein]

OK -- if you look above at my tsuba where the gold insert is there is a long rectangular sukashi -- to it's right and above it you will see small punch marks which form a semicircle and circle respectively. Those are the florets I am speaking of. 'Ji Mon' (which means his treatment of the ji -- his signiture use of patterns) is basically his use of small punch marks into the ji. You will see circles or these sort of random designs or sometimes a just a couple of marks. They break up the background much the way Kaneiye used rolling tsuchime ji to give depth and bring out the larger intended design.

 

As far as what I look for in Nobuie tsuba I really can't explain it unless you first look at a couple hundred pictures of Nobuie. Then we can talk. It has to do with getting a feel for the compositions and overall metalwork. Memorization of the mei is mandatory as there aren't many mumei Nobuie (as in hardly any) that I am aware of and many gimei. I could tell from the first radical stroke of Nobu in Austin's tsuba it was hanare mei. It was the tsuba itself that threw me off due to condition and shape.

 

Quick note: Have any of you ever seen those pictures where there's a hidden picture within them and you can't see it at first but after you find it you can't see the picture again the way you saw it the first time? That is why you need to study many Nobuie examples (or any tsuba style for that matter) before you can start seeing the key elements. Your brain needs to identify (learn) the key elements then it processes the 'picture' properly. After that happens it's easy. Until then -- it makes no sense.

 

Also -- the only 'restoration' this piece needs is some rubbing with a soft cloth. The patina will come right back. I suspect that browninsh area at the bottom right of the mimi is lacquer. It is in the 1914 picture also and I can see subtle hints of it elsewhere.

[Ted Tenold]

Good one Pete!

 

Somebody buy that man some good Sake'. I hear he's been forced to drink that domestic US made plonk.

[Pete Klein]

Honto ni arigato.

[Pete Klein]

Here is #428 from the Nobuie Exhibition book 1995. I also found it in Sasano's study group book 'Tosogu Yuhin Zufu' #2, page 4.

BTW: all four of the Mosle Nobuie tsuba in the plate are in the 'Kanshoki' by Torigoye, Japanese first edition. Sorry, I didn't notice them before as I was looking only for your tsuba Austin.

[Steve Waszak]

Pete,

 

A couple of questions for you regarding the Mosle image (4 Nobuie) from 1914:

 

1. #s 427 and 428 are identified as shodai Nobuie. The mei style does indeed look similar/the same, but what to make of the one being "split," with the wide gap between the characters? Is this something known to be the case with (shodai or otherwise) Nobuie?

 

2. I believe I have read somewhere that the hanare-mei signature is associated with the shodai, yet the captions for tsubas 427 and 428 in the Mosle identify these as shodai, despite their not being hanare-mei. Do you happen to know the latest thinking on the association between mei type and shodai/nidai Nobuie?

 

Thanks, Pete. Fantastic job with Austin's tsuba. And congrats, Austin, on your find!

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Bungo]

" Quick note: Have any of you ever seen those pictures where there's a hidden picture within them and you can't see it at first but after you find it you can't see the picture again the way you saw it the first time? "

 

like seeing the Virgin Mary on some iron tsuba ?

 

milt

[Pete Klein]

Well Milt -- I doubt the Virgin Mary. If this was your tsuba and you had just found out that it is not only genuine but was from the Mosle Collection I think the first thing from your lips when looking at it would be, 'Oh My God'!

 

Steven: The listings you mentioned are in error to the Akiyama Kyusaku classification. Tsuba #424 and #425 fall under 'Ga-mei' or 'elegant signature' specifically being called 'Hanare-mei' and therefore shodai work. Tsuba #427 and #428 fall under the heading 'Chikara-mei' or 'Mighty Signiture' specifically being called in this case 'Futoji-mei' and therefore one of the four signiture styles of the nidai's work along with 'Katchu-mei', 'Sakai-mei' and 'Sumari-mei'. The fact that the kanji are separated in #427 places it in the 'wide-spaced' sub-group. I have seen several different mei styles in this sub-group and there is no consensus of thought at present on this matter (which is why you tend not to see them in Japanese books on the subject). If you reference Haynes Catalogue #7, pages #48 and #49 there is a discussion of this topic with three examples . I do not agree with the conclusions but the tsuba are valid examples of true Nobuie, one being Futoji-mei and two being Hanare-mei. As for the Akiyama Classification from what I can put together at present in Japan there is no consensus of thought on the validity of the shodai/nidai concept. It seems that there is movement to place these works into a group/family heading, all being related but of different hands. Papers are given to 'Nobuie' but do not specify generation. The masterworks seem to all come from the Azuchi-Momoyama jidai.

 

Just speculation: I have to wonder if the makers saw their mei being damaged in re-fitting their tsuba to other swords and purposely placed the kanji wide apart to prevent this? It's just a thought! LOL

[Pete Klein]

OK -- here Milt -- just for you! Can you see the Scary Clown Face???

[Bungo]

I see that all the time in Nov.

 

Using smily is NOT an acceptable example.................

 

milt

[Bungo]

okie dokie,

How many here thought this Nobuie is shoshin when first posted ? Be honest.

My first impression is most likely gimei but the funky sukashi plug did give me pause as it's quite " out of the ordinary and interesting ", other than that, the iron looks dry and overall condition is just so-so.

Of course it takes a " specialist " like ole Pete here to spot the potential as he probably dreams Nobuie when he takes nap.

 

Another example for us not to dismiss anything out of hand ............... believe the " improbable ".

But I would not submit this tsuba for any oversea ( NTHK, both version ) shinsa, best send it back to Japan NBTHK.

 

milt