Difference between Han-tanren-to and Sunobe-to

[IJASWORDS]

You are right, I took it the wrong way. 

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 1/19/2020 at 8:48 PM, dwmc said:

Bruce, I'm normally 99% wrong with all shin gunto opinions and have to lean heavily on others in fear of going a complete 100%.

 

However, after reading Dave R's exposition in post 10 ( a couple of times) hopefully I/we can have a little better understanding of showato terms.

 

I'm getting the han-tan-to may be just a variation of sunobe-to.

 

Dave M.

I'm still learning this whole business, but the way I read the def of "sunobe" is it is single steel, whereas the Han-tan is multiple steel mix. Right?

[dwmc]

  On 1/19/2020 at 11:30 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

I'm still learning this whole business, but the way I read the def of "sunobe" is it is single steel, whereas the Han-tan is multiple steel mix. Right?

 

Good point Bruce! This whole topic of Sunobe ( at least to me ) is still a bit confusing. The way I read the exposition is the word "Sunobe" is used for all swords made of modern steel. This is why I think Han-tan-to is simply a variation of sunobe.

 

The Japanese definition of Han is (half or semi). I feel the term Han may be used in a rather "loose" sense of the word. Taren-to is described as fold welding, how do you manage to half fold a sword considering the strict definition of the term Han-Tanen-to?

 

The beat up example of Seki showato I showed above could very well be Sunobe in that it could be a single bar of homogeneous steel. I see characteristics which could indicate either... 

 

 

Dave M.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Really not sure I follow your train of thought here Dave, it's pretty clear cut Sunobe and Hantenren are two very different types of construction method as clearly evidenced by the different examples posted.

[Bruce Pennington]

Well, the terms are getting confused. 
sunobe - single steel, no fold

han-tan - multiple steel mix, no fold

han-tanren- multiple (2) steels, folded.

 

right?

[dwmc]

  On 1/20/2020 at 7:55 AM, PNSSHOGUN said:

Really not sure I follow your train of though here Dave, it's pretty clear cut Sunobe and Hantenren are two very different types of construction method as clearly evidenced by the different examples posted.

 

Quite true John, No doubt Sunobe and Han-tanren are different types of construction. One folded the other not. I'm just curious as to the term Han as possibly implying Semi rather than Half. As was explained to me at the San Francisco sword show Han-tanto-to was a sword which had received only a partial level of forging.

 

There's no doubt Neil's sword has some sort of folding. The other's (Dean's) , I struggle to see grain. My sword definitely has no grain.

 

My train of thought is more along the line of semantics as opposed to construction as I feel the exposition clearly indicates also.

 

My sincere condolences to all of those devastated by fire in Australia...

 

Dave M.

[dwmc]

  On 1/20/2020 at 10:09 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

Well, the terms are getting confused. 

sunobe - single steel, no fold

han-tan - multiple steel mix, no fold

han-tanren- multiple (2) steels, folded.

 

right?

 

Bruce, I think in the strict sense of the terms your exactly right!

 

Dave M.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Dave look closely at the Hamon on Dean's sword, there is clear Hada. Now with some of the "Sunobe-To" they did use old swedish steel railtracks which possessed a sort of grain that could be misconstrued as being folded. I do agree this Hantan/Hantanren thing isn't helpful whatsoever for us. A more logical list would perhaps be:

 

1: Gendaito made from Tamahagane

2: Traditionally made using modern steel etc but oil tempered

3: Partly forged & folded using various steel and oil tempered

4: Drawn mill, or special steel, oil tempered

5: Through tempered mill steel (Murata-To etc)

[Dave R]

 If you are looking for a term to generally describe a sharp blade of no antiquity ..... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinken

 

All the other terms are defined quite nicely by Usagiya which is a Japan based shop for Nihonto. They also provide a polishing service and even blade smithing .   http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/profile.html

[dwmc]

  On 1/20/2020 at 11:39 AM, PNSSHOGUN said:

Dave look closely at the Hamon on Dean's sword, there is clear Hada. Now with some of the "Sunobe-To" they did use old swedish steel railtracks which possessed a sort of grain that could be misconstrued as being folded. I do agree this Hantan/Hantanren thing isn't helpful whatsoever for us. A more logical list would perhaps be:

 

1: Gendaito made from Tamahagane

2: Traditionally made using modern steel etc but oil tempered

3: Partly forged & folded using various steel and oil tempered

4: Drawn mill, or special steel, oil tempered

5: Through tempered mill steel (Murata-To etc)

 

Hi John, Didn't mean to drag the thread off topic which I suspect could have easily been explained as modern steel folded, modern steel not folded.

 

Basically, I read the term "Sunobe" as usually meaning all swords made using modern steel, and the exact term meaning block steel without folding.

 

I'll take a closer look at Dean's sword, it is a rather nice sword and your list does appear quite logical.

 

Also, off topic, but I really like that "V" stitch tassel you came in possession of. Just a word of warning with that variation. One little snag and apart it goes...

 

Appreciate your explanation,

 

Dave M.

[Dean1981]

Here is my sword - han-tanren

 

You can see lots of grain

 

Great topic by the way PNSSHOGUN ! I’m

Learning lots

[16k]

That’s the thing Dean, because I must be blind, but personally, I can’t see Hada here...

[Dean1981]

More photos - I’ll get my professional camera out on it tomorrow

[16k]

I still see nioi, extremely tiny ko nie, but to me this is muji Hada... 

[lonely panet]

  On 1/18/2020 at 11:23 AM, Dave R said:

 "Hamfish" has an excellent example of one of these, but I will wait for him to post pic's  and looking at that and others, the most obvious difference is a very clear and coarse grain, possible even to mistake for a modern Chinese damascus.... as has happened on this site. 

 I think a fair few of Amahida' swords fall under this description as well. This pic' is from an online sellers page.

 

give me time to dig up the photos guys

[PNSSHOGUN]

Hmm, well Dean there was one photo that appeared to show activity but maybe it's just a anomaly in the steel around the Hamon or could even be swedish railway steel showing that grain I mentioned?

[Dean1981]

I found this on the web - don’t know if it helps but it’s got a lot of info on Muji hada

 

http://www.swordforum.com/vb4/showthread.php?29600-Muji-Hada-on-Nihonto-Swords

[Dave R]

  On 1/20/2020 at 8:23 PM, Hamfish said:

give me time to dig up the photos guys

 

 If you are OK with it, I can post them from my files.........

[dwmc]

  On 1/20/2020 at 7:14 PM, 16k said:

I still see nioi, extremely tiny ko nie, but to me this is muji Hada... 

 

I'm with 16K, I took a closer look at Dean's sword and still unable to see discernible Hada. Very nice looking though!

 

Dave M.

[16k]

  On 1/20/2020 at 9:17 PM, PNSSHOGUN said:

Hmm, well Dean there was one photo that appeared to show activity but maybe it's just a anomaly in the steel around the Hamon or could even be swedish railway steel showing that grain I mentioned?

post-5101-0-31034000-1579290410.jpeg

 

That is actually the only picture that made me wonder if there was or not Hada. But upon closer inspection I think this is just traces left by the polishing.

 

Now, just to be clear, my remarks aren’t meant as a way to downplay the beauty and quality of that sword. It is a beautiful, well made blade, probably top of the heap WW2 blade. I’m just stating what I don’t see for the sake of clarifying whether this falls in the category of Hantanren or not.

[Dean1981]

  On 1/21/2020 at 6:07 AM, 16k said:

That is actually the only picture that made me wonder if there was or not Hada. But upon closer inspection I think this is just traces left by the polishing.

 

Now, just to be clear, my remarks aren’t meant as a way to downplay the beauty and quality of that sword. It is a beautiful, well made blade, probably top of the heap WW2 blade. I’m just stating what I don’t see for the sake of clarifying whether this falls in the category of Hantanren or not.

It’s all positive 16k and I appreciate all the comments and opinions. I think it’s a fantastic thread I’ve already learnt lots as I’m sure others have too.

 

- Dean

[Dave R]

 Got a PM from Hamfish, and he is OK with me posting his pics from my files.... This is possibly the most classic example of a Han-Tanren you are going to see. Made as an Aito with Showa era Buke Zukuri mounts, and then militarised for the war.

[16k]

Oh, man, interesting and worthy to be kept in a collection but even worse than the worst Chinese fake. This must have been a very low point in sword making.

[Brian]

Why? Are you talking about the last post? Nothing wrong with it, it is just a different forging method. There is nothing low quality there. In fact probably takes some skill to forge that.
 

[16k]

  On 1/21/2020 at 12:08 PM, Brian said:

Why? Are you talking about the last post? Nothing wrong with it, it is just a different forging method. There is nothing low quality there. In fact probably takes some skill to forge that.

 

Oh, you're right, Brian, it's just not very aesthetic i think and i've seen better looking Hada on Chinese blades. We usually say some bad stuff about Chinese blades when some are more pleasing to the eye than this one. Still, as I said, it's part of Japanese sword history and as such deserves a rightful place in a collection. Just my tastes speaking.

[Kiipu]

  On 1/21/2020 at 10:31 AM, Dave R said:

 Got a PM from Hamfish, and he is OK with me posting his pics from my files.... This is possibly the most classic example of a Han-Tanren you are going to see.

 

I found the post which has even more pictures.

civlian katana in military use

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/15735-civlian-katana-in-military-use/

[16k]

That’s a very interesting sword. I’ve read in “modern Japanese swords: the beginning of the Gendaito era” (btw, if you’re on the fence, don’t buy it, it’s one of the most useless books I’ve seen) that some swords were actually made of rail tracks which showed what looked like Hada but indeed wasn’t and I wonder if these weren’t made this way.

[Bruce Pennington]

JP,

I know the discussion you refer too. I think the rails were made with a Swiss steel that had lines in it that resembled folding. Like all things gunto - probably both happened.

[SAS]

As Brian said.....every weld has the potential to not be a good one, so it takes a lot of skill to produce such a sword. The "half- forged" reference makes sense to me, in that Hamfish's sword would be the result of forge welding a billet less times than another sword which has less hada...forged further, the sword could be said to be muji hada, but which is actually folded so many times the layers seem to disappear.

[Dave R]

 The rail track swords are quite well known, and researched, but a bit of a digression here. My take on some of these Showa blades is that they were modern steel folded to give an obvious grain, possibly even several different steels for contrast. I would put Amahida's mixed metal specials in the same category.

 The were not art swords, but pre war were made as aito for martial artists for use as "cutters, and in wartime as something a bit "better" than plain steel.

 I would say that quality of polish was another factor, early Showa there were problems with such, and one of these blades would look quite handsome in the hand even with a less than perfect polish... and if you are cutting you don't need or want a perfect polish