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Difference between Han-tanren-to and Sunobe-to

djcollection

By djcollection
in Military Swords of Japan

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Bruce Pennington Grand Master

Bruce Pennington

Posted
Posted

Bruce, I'm normally 99% wrong with all shin gunto opinions and have to lean heavily on others in fear of going a complete 100%.

 

However, after reading Dave R's exposition in post 10 ( a couple of times) hopefully I/we can have a little better understanding of showato terms.

 

I'm getting the han-tan-to may be just a variation of sunobe-to.

 

Dave M.

I'm still learning this whole business, but the way I read the def of "sunobe" is it is single steel, whereas the Han-tan is multiple steel mix. Right?

dwmc Mentor

dwmc

Posted
Posted

I'm still learning this whole business, but the way I read the def of "sunobe" is it is single steel, whereas the Han-tan is multiple steel mix. Right?

 

Good point Bruce! This whole topic of Sunobe ( at least to me ) is still a bit confusing. The way I read the exposition is the word "Sunobe" is used for all swords made of modern steel. This is why I think Han-tan-to is simply a variation of sunobe.

 

The Japanese definition of Han is (half or semi). I feel the term Han may be used in a rather "loose" sense of the word. Taren-to is described as fold welding, how do you manage to half fold a sword considering the strict definition of the term Han-Tanen-to?

 

The beat up example of Seki showato I showed above could very well be Sunobe in that it could be a single bar of homogeneous steel. I see characteristics which could indicate either... 

 

 

Dave M.

  • Like 1
PNSSHOGUN Grand Master

PNSSHOGUN

Posted
Posted

Really not sure I follow your train of thought here Dave, it's pretty clear cut Sunobe and Hantenren are two very different types of construction method as clearly evidenced by the different examples posted.

dwmc Mentor

dwmc

Posted
Posted

Really not sure I follow your train of though here Dave, it's pretty clear cut Sunobe and Hantenren are two very different types of construction method as clearly evidenced by the different examples posted.

 

Quite true John, No doubt Sunobe and Han-tanren are different types of construction. One folded the other not. I'm just curious as to the term Han as possibly implying Semi rather than Half. As was explained to me at the San Francisco sword show Han-tanto-to was a sword which had received only a partial level of forging.

 

There's no doubt Neil's sword has some sort of folding. The other's (Dean's) , I struggle to see grain. My sword definitely has no grain.

 

My train of thought is more along the line of semantics as opposed to construction as I feel the exposition clearly indicates also.

 

My sincere condolences to all of those devastated by fire in Australia...

 

Dave M.

dwmc Mentor

dwmc

Posted
Posted

Well, the terms are getting confused. 

sunobe - single steel, no fold

han-tan - multiple steel mix, no fold

han-tanren- multiple (2) steels, folded.

 

right?

 

Bruce, I think in the strict sense of the terms your exactly right!

 

Dave M.

PNSSHOGUN Grand Master

PNSSHOGUN

Posted
Posted

Dave look closely at the Hamon on Dean's sword, there is clear Hada. Now with some of the "Sunobe-To" they did use old swedish steel railtracks which possessed a sort of grain that could be misconstrued as being folded. I do agree this Hantan/Hantanren thing isn't helpful whatsoever for us. A more logical list would perhaps be:

 

1: Gendaito made from Tamahagane

2: Traditionally made using modern steel etc but oil tempered

3: Partly forged & folded using various steel and oil tempered

4: Drawn mill, or special steel, oil tempered

5: Through tempered mill steel (Murata-To etc)

  • Like 1
dwmc Mentor

dwmc

Posted
Posted

Dave look closely at the Hamon on Dean's sword, there is clear Hada. Now with some of the "Sunobe-To" they did use old swedish steel railtracks which possessed a sort of grain that could be misconstrued as being folded. I do agree this Hantan/Hantanren thing isn't helpful whatsoever for us. A more logical list would perhaps be:

 

1: Gendaito made from Tamahagane

2: Traditionally made using modern steel etc but oil tempered

3: Partly forged & folded using various steel and oil tempered

4: Drawn mill, or special steel, oil tempered

5: Through tempered mill steel (Murata-To etc)

 

Hi John, Didn't mean to drag the thread off topic which I suspect could have easily been explained as modern steel folded, modern steel not folded.

 

Basically, I read the term "Sunobe" as usually meaning all swords made using modern steel, and the exact term meaning block steel without folding.

 

I'll take a closer look at Dean's sword, it is a rather nice sword and your list does appear quite logical.

 

Also, off topic, but I really like that "V" stitch tassel you came in possession of. Just a word of warning with that variation. One little snag and apart it goes...

 

Appreciate your explanation,

 

Dave M.

16k Grand Master

16k

Posted
Posted

That’s the thing Dean, because I must be blind, but personally, I can’t see Hada here... :dunno:

lonely panet Grand Master

lonely panet

Posted
Posted

 "Hamfish" has an excellent example of one of these, but I will wait for him to post pic's  and looking at that and others, the most obvious difference is a very clear and coarse grain, possible even to mistake for a modern Chinese damascus.... as has happened on this site. 

 I think a fair few of Amahida' swords fall under this description as well. This pic' is from an online sellers page.

 

give me time to dig up the photos guys

  • Like 1
PNSSHOGUN Grand Master

PNSSHOGUN

Posted
Posted

Hmm, well Dean there was one photo that appeared to show activity but maybe it's just a anomaly in the steel around the Hamon or could even be swedish railway steel showing that grain I mentioned?

post-3926-0-63655400-1579555038_thumb.jpeg

  • Like 2
dwmc Mentor

dwmc

Posted
Posted

I still see nioi, extremely tiny ko nie, but to me this is muji Hada... 

 

I'm with 16K, I took a closer look at Dean's sword and still unable to see discernible Hada. Very nice looking though!

 

Dave M.

  • Like 1
16k Grand Master

16k

Posted
Posted

Hmm, well Dean there was one photo that appeared to show activity but maybe it's just a anomaly in the steel around the Hamon or could even be swedish railway steel showing that grain I mentioned?

attachicon.gifpost-5101-0-31034000-1579290410.jpeg

 

That is actually the only picture that made me wonder if there was or not Hada. But upon closer inspection I think this is just traces left by the polishing.

 

Now, just to be clear, my remarks aren’t meant as a way to downplay the beauty and quality of that sword. It is a beautiful, well made blade, probably top of the heap WW2 blade. I’m just stating what I don’t see for the sake of clarifying whether this falls in the category of Hantanren or not.

  • Like 1
Dean1981 Enthusiast

Dean1981

Posted
Posted

That is actually the only picture that made me wonder if there was or not Hada. But upon closer inspection I think this is just traces left by the polishing.

 

Now, just to be clear, my remarks aren’t meant as a way to downplay the beauty and quality of that sword. It is a beautiful, well made blade, probably top of the heap WW2 blade. I’m just stating what I don’t see for the sake of clarifying whether this falls in the category of Hantanren or not.

It’s all positive 16k and I appreciate all the comments and opinions. I think it’s a fantastic thread I’ve already learnt lots as I’m sure others have too.

 

- Dean

Dave R Grand Master

Dave R

Posted
Posted

 Got a PM from Hamfish, and he is OK with me posting his pics from my files.... This is possibly the most classic example of a Han-Tanren you are going to see. Made as an Aito with Showa era Buke Zukuri mounts, and then militarised for the war.

post-2218-0-66616300-1579602312_thumb.jpg

post-2218-0-41361400-1579602327_thumb.jpg

post-2218-0-57320800-1579602343_thumb.jpg

post-2218-0-67463100-1579602662_thumb.jpg

  • Like 4
16k Grand Master

16k

Posted
Posted

Oh, man, interesting and worthy to be kept in a collection but even worse than the worst Chinese fake. This must have been a very low point in sword making.

Brian

Brian

Posted
Posted

Why? Are you talking about the last post? Nothing wrong with it, it is just a different forging method. There is nothing low quality there. In fact probably takes some skill to forge that.
 

  • Like 3
16k Grand Master

16k

Posted
Posted

Why? Are you talking about the last post? Nothing wrong with it, it is just a different forging method. There is nothing low quality there. In fact probably takes some skill to forge that.

 

Oh, you're right, Brian, it's just not very aesthetic i think and i've seen better looking Hada on Chinese blades. We usually say some bad stuff about Chinese blades when some are more pleasing to the eye than this one. Still, as I said, it's part of Japanese sword history and as such deserves a rightful place in a collection. Just my tastes speaking.

  • Like 2
16k Grand Master

16k

Posted
Posted

That’s a very interesting sword. I’ve read in “modern Japanese swords: the beginning of the Gendaito era” (btw, if you’re on the fence, don’t buy it, it’s one of the most useless books I’ve seen) that some swords were actually made of rail tracks which showed what looked like Hada but indeed wasn’t and I wonder if these weren’t made this way.

SAS Grand Master

SAS

Posted
Posted

As Brian said.....every weld has the potential to not be a good one, so it takes a lot of skill to produce such a sword. The "half- forged" reference makes sense to me, in that Hamfish's sword would be the result of forge welding a billet less times than another sword which has less hada...forged further, the sword could be said to be muji hada, but which is actually folded so many times the layers seem to disappear.

  • Like 2
Dave R Grand Master

Dave R

Posted
Posted

 The rail track swords are quite well known, and researched, but a bit of a digression here. My take on some of these Showa blades is that they were modern steel folded to give an obvious grain, possibly even several different steels for contrast. I would put Amahida's mixed metal specials in the same category.

 The were not art swords, but pre war were made as aito for martial artists for use as "cutters, and in wartime as something a bit "better" than plain steel.

 I would say that quality of polish was another factor, early Showa there were problems with such, and one of these blades would look quite handsome in the hand even with a less than perfect polish... and if you are cutting you don't need or want a perfect polish

post-2218-0-74819300-1579633555_thumb.jpg

  • Like 2
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