Difference between Han-tanren-to and Sunobe-to

[djcollection]

Does anyone have photos to show the visual difference between the two? I recall sunobeto is drawn and hammered, and requires less forging than han-tanren to?

[Dave R]

 "Hamfish" has an excellent example of one of these, but I will wait for him to post pic's  and looking at that and others, the most obvious difference is a very clear and coarse grain, possible even to mistake for a modern Chinese damascus.... as has happened on this site. 

 I think a fair few of Amahida' swords fall under this description as well. This pic' is from an online sellers page.

[16k]

  On 1/18/2020 at 11:23 AM, Dave R said:

 "Hamfish" has an excellent example of one of these, but I will wait for him to post pic's  and looking at that and others, the most obvious difference is a very clear and coarse grain, possible even to mistake for a modern Chinese damascus.... as has happened on this site. 

 I think a fair few of Amahida' swords fall under this description as well. This pic' is from an online sellers page.

 

if I’d been shown this picture, I’d have said it’s a Chinese copy.

[Bruce Pennington]

I appreciate the topic Mason. I don't have any examples to show other than my zoheito. Not being familiar with the words in your topic, I got ejumacated a bit! Ha! So help me get this straight. As I read it, a sunobe blade is drawn-out, single steel (Maruta-to, zohei-to) and a han-tanrento is mixed steels and folded? And the steels mixed can be of any kind?

[16k]

I think you got it right, Bruce.

[vajo]

Hantanren-to could be made full traditionel but only oil hardned.

 

 

https://www.aoijapan.net/katana-noushu-sekijyu-kawamura-masanobu-saku/

[Dave R]

 Most Han-Tenro- to (half forged swords) are Showato "Aito" often in Bukuro-zukuri mounts, then sent off to war as the sword shortage bit harder. I rather like them, and would in fact swap a nihonto wak' for one.

 Not just a short-cut but I think a sword made for a popular audience, easily  discerned "grain" a decent cutter, and at a popular price... and an anathema to a modern nihonto collector.

[16k]

So, Chris, what makes this a Hantanren? I have two Showato that look exactly like that. How would you ,are the difference?

[Dave R]

  On 1/18/2020 at 6:04 PM, 16k said:

if I’d been shown this picture, I’d have said it’s a Chinese copy.

 

 Yep, but if you study them you can see the difference. If you are "in to" Showato, it's worth getting to know them.

[Dave R]

A nice exposition here...   http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/sunobe.html

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 1/18/2020 at 7:47 PM, 16k said:

So, Chris, what makes this a Hantanren? I have two Showato that look exactly like that. How would you ,are the difference?

JP, the site says it: "Special feature : The blade was made at Mino province which is called Hantanren.

Hal oil temper sword."

[16k]

Yes, but a Showato with oil remperimg made in Seki isn’t necessarily a Hantanren. Here, they say it is, but how can they know? I see no difference between a Sunobe blade and a Hantanren on this picture.

[Bruce Pennington]

Yes, in fact one of the distictive problems faced during the war were really well made showato. It's the reason the govt started the stamping system.

 

The site doesn't say. Maybe the provenance from the family actually said it when talking of the purchase for the family member? Otherwise, who could know?

[IJASWORDS]

This is a Yamamura Yoshimichi, made March 1942. 

The blade looks so much like Damascus steel. I don't like it, but keep it as an example of WW2 manufacturing, mounts are great however.

[Dave R]

In the end, you have to look at the entire package, and if you are lucky you might have a decent backstory to validate the blade..... I do wonder though, if han-tanren blades have influenced the Chinese fakers in their blind imitation of "Damascus"?

[djcollection]

We need to see more of showato to know the difference, but sadly there ain't many to see

 

  On 1/18/2020 at 7:48 PM, Dave R said:

 Yep, but if you study them you can see the difference. If you are "in to" Showato, it's worth getting to know them.

[djcollection]

The surface lines are the evidence of forging, so han tanren to.

  On 1/18/2020 at 9:24 PM, IJASWORDS said:

This is a Yamamura Yoshimichi, made March 1942. 

The blade looks so much like Damascus steel. I don't like it, but keep it as an example of WW2 manufacturing, mounts are great however.

[djcollection]

Surface grain, evidence of forging?

  On 1/18/2020 at 6:39 PM, vajo said:

Hantanren-to could be made full traditionel but only oil hardned.

 

 

https://www.aoijapan.net/katana-noushu-sekijyu-kawamura-masanobu-saku/

[djcollection]

https://www.samuraishokai.jp/sword/19163.html

 

Could this be a Han-Tenro- to? A better quality showato?

  On 1/18/2020 at 7:44 PM, Dave R said:

 Most Han-Tenro- to (half forged swords) are Showato "Aito" often in Bukuro-zukuri mounts, then sent off to war as the sword shortage bit harder. I rather like them, and would in fact swap a nihonto wak' for one.

 Not just a short-cut but I think a sword made for a popular audience, easily  discerned "grain" a decent cutter, and at a popular price... and an anathema to a modern nihonto collector.

[djcollection]

Hi Bruce, I think you've shown a good example of sunobe blade compared to the other photos- without forging and folding which are necesseary steps involved in making a han tanrento.

  On 1/18/2020 at 6:25 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

I appreciate the topic Mason. I don't have any examples to show other than my zoheito. Not being familiar with the words in your topic, I got ejumacated a bit! Ha! So help me get this straight. As I read it, a sunobe blade is drawn-out, single steel (Maruta-to, zohei-to) and a han-tanrento is mixed steels and folded? And the steels mixed can be of any kind?
image1 (6).jpeg

[djcollection]

Hi Dave, the pic shows the blade with basic forging and folding (simple surfase lines) compared to more refined process of folding done in the traditional way. And by definition sunobe blade was only drawn and hammered without being folded, so we won't see the surface features. I think I've seen somewhere the quality of showato is ranked according to the forging effort went into it.

  On 1/18/2020 at 11:23 AM, Dave R said:

 "Hamfish" has an excellent example of one of these, but I will wait for him to post pic's  and looking at that and others, the most obvious difference is a very clear and coarse grain, possible even to mistake for a modern Chinese damascus.... as has happened on this site. 

 I think a fair few of Amahida' swords fall under this description as well. This pic' is from an online sellers page.

[16k]

  On 1/18/2020 at 9:24 PM, IJASWORDS said:

This is a Yamamura Yoshimichi, made March 1942. 

The blade looks so much like Damascus steel. I don't like it, but keep it as an example of WW2 manufacturing, mounts are great however.

 

That s indeed not one of the most beautiful sword I’ve seen, but nice to have one in your collection, Neil!

[IJASWORDS]

JP, thanks, I actually thought that posting pictures of this sword may have gotten more comment. The koshirae is almost mint, and good quality, so why in 1942 would an officer buy such a poor quality blade? Yes it is very roughly folded and forged, almost no hamon, but the smith took time to sign and date it. I have seen better NCO blades.Was there a blade shortage? Was it due to price? 

As you say, I keep it not for its beauty, but part of Japanese sword history.  

[SAS]

maybe it was what he could afford.

[Bruce Pennington]

Neil,

Like collectors have many varied tastes, I'm sure you'll find just as much variation in taste in the WWII IJA officer. Steve's idea could very well explain it - he had enough money to buy good looking koshirae, but not enough for a great blade. So he looks good to all appearances.

A slight variation is that he wanted to look good, but wanted a blade that he didn't mind putting into battle, a weapon, not an art-piece.

[dwmc]

  On 1/19/2020 at 9:37 AM, masondj said:

We need to see more of showato to know the difference, but sadly there ain't many to see

 

This is a Showa 17 Seki showato. I'm not sure whether it will contribute to the topic or not. I've shown it to many knowledgeable individuals at gun and sword shows over the years. It has more often than not, (even though likely a misnomer), been classified a Han-tan-to gunto. In Dave R's post # 10, the exposition does an excellent job of describing mis-used terms and explanations of such. For example, what exactly would be a half folded blade.. Han-tanren-to???

 

As explained to me, Han-tan-to would be considered a non-folded blade, oil quenched, with a certain level of swordsmith work applied...Seki showato.

[Bruce Pennington]

Interesting example Dave! I wonder if the different colorations in the nakago reveal the mixed steels? The blade definitely doesn't look folded, which to my very-inexperienced eyes, would have said sunobe-to. But if guys with experienced eyes at seeing variations in blades/steels see the han-tan, then yours is a good example.

[dwmc]

Bruce, I'm normally 99% wrong with all shin gunto opinions and have to lean heavily on others in fear of going a complete 100%.

 

However, after reading Dave R's exposition in post 10 ( a couple of times) hopefully I/we can have a little better understanding of showato terms.

 

I'm getting the han-tan-to may be just a variation of sunobe-to.

 

Dave M.

[IJASWORDS]

I have a problem with one part of the article, that says showa-to are SUNOBE, and no showa swords are traditionally made. 

I am sure there are traditionally made Showa period swords, Gassan Sadakatsu for example. I also believe others like Yasukuni Shrine used tamaghagane from their own tatara.  

[PNSSHOGUN]

My understanding has been Hantenren implies forging and folding of the steel, usually a mill/western type steel. You can see the same effect today with modern chinese swords, the high quality steel doesn't need to be forge folded much, really just for aesthetics, the result is usually a very coarse and rough Hada. It can produce varying quality depending on the ability of the smith (perhaps the type of steel as well?) and we see quite clearly in the Neil & Chris's swords just how different these results can be.

 

One of the better examples is Dean's sword in this thread: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/30876-opinions-on-a-sword-blade-and-nakago/page-2

 

Neil, if you check the article again it says just the opposite, just oddly worded: So this word makes beginners confuse to "All blades in Showa era are non-traditional".