New sword no idea on what it is realy

[Kmad]

I am not sure what attached is

I was wondering how to remove the handle to see what is underneath or if it is worth looking at

This came with a load of antique muskets as part of a job lot out of an old theatre

The sword feels right it has a nice balance but it is a lot thinner blade than any Japanese sword I had previously

 

The ray skin handle feels correct and the saya looks and feels correct.

 

The handle seems to be held on with screws with no obvious way of opening them

Blade length comes in at just under 25 inches and the hamon is quiet linear with no discernible pattern

 

It is evening here so hard to take better pictures on the tablet

Any info appreciated

 

Regards

 

Ken

[IanB]

ken,  What you have is a katana in what are known as handachi (half tachi) mounts. They differ from a tachi in not having hangers and were worn edge up through the obi like a normal katana. 

Ian Bottomley

[Kmad]

Thanks Ian

How would you go about taking off the handle as there seems like no easy way to open the screws and also can you tell by looking at it as to when the mounts date from.

Is the fact the blade so thin due to many polishes or is this just the style of the blade

Regards

Ken

[Ganko]

The handle should be held on with a pin which goes through the silver ferrules just to the rear of the hand guard(tsuba). If you look through the ferrules and you can see light through them, then the pin is not there. If there is a pin in there it must be removed to take the handle off, also the handle may still be stuck very tightly. Removing the handle should be done carefully or you may cause damage to it. You should take it to a person familiar with Japanese swords. It appears to be a koto sword(pre 1600) to me.

[Kmad]

Looks like the peg is not there so I guess the handle is just v tight

Picture from both sides attached

I will take more pictures of the tsuba a in better light tomorrow

Regards

Ken

[Ken-Hawaii]

You might see if it unscrews. Tsuka aren't made to be permanently mounted.

[Grey Doffin]

How to handle and care for the sword, including handle removal:

http://nbthk-ab.org/cleaning-maintenance.html

Grey

[Kmad]

Hi

If it does unscrew how do you grip the screw as there is no slot and I do not want to grip it in a vice grip

Also I have read some time the screws are left handed thread which could add to the priblem

Thanks

Ken

[Ganko]

Do not put pliers on it as it looks like a decorative ferrule for the peg. If you can see all the way through it to the other side then the peg is gone. The only thing holding it on should then be the rust on the tang, however I have seen swords that have had the handles glued on by unknowing individuals. Read the link from Grey Doffin above before you do any harm to it.

[lambo35]

Ken, the first thing I would attempt would be to locate a person in your area that has knowledge of Japanese swords and have them look at it. If that is not a likely scenario or cannot be easily done I would take a small tapered marlin spike and see if it will penetrate to the same depth on both the right and left side of the tsuka ferrule, the lumen on each side could be of two different sizes.. This is to see if it might be two pieces and a scew together structure such as a sarute or barrel nut on a kabutogane. If it is it should be able to to be unscrewed. You might then try to push the spike onto one of the sides with a little pressure and see if it can be unscrewed, if not, use a little bit of very light penetrating oil on the inside of the ferrule, [NOT on the ray skin!] and let it stand for a day or two before trying to unscrew it again. Try both sides, if it is a two piece structure it will come apart. Good luck. And by the way, very nice find!

[Kmad]

Hi All

I know I am out of my depth on this one so I think I will do nothing for a while.

I will put light oil on the blade and leave it at that

 

You would be horrified if you saw where I pulled this out of the guy was demonstrating to me in his kitchen by cutting an apple in half on a chopping board!

I I reckoned I had to get the sword out of this guys hand as I reckon he might have gone cutting trees next

I am amazed at the condition as this was one un loved sword. I got another blade and scabbard thrown into the package and I will open a new thread on the other blade but unfortunately the blade is not half as nice or good condition and there is nothing on the tang.

 

In the mean time can you let me know if it ever had wrap on the grip as there is no shadow left on the grip from staining where there was a gap in the wrapping

Also is the blade straighter than other katana as a style thing or just the way it is made for this example.

And the age of 1600 is am amazing to me would others concur

.

I know one sword collector in my locality so I will reach out to him

 

I guess I did ok either way as I have 75 euro into this and the other sword

I am away up the mountains for the day but I can get any other helpful pictures up on the forum tonight.

 

Regards to all.

Ken

[Geraint]

Dear Ken.

 

Late to the party but to answer some of your questions...... I don't think your sword was ever wrapped but it would have had menuki, I think I can see a pale shadow on one image just above the reluctant mekugi where one would have been.

 

I would add my vote to the pre 1600 camp though be aware that age alone, while fascinating is not a guarantee of quality.  I think we expect this sword to have been shortened which in part may account for the rather straighter blade than you are used to.  We always enjoy the possibilities when a sword like this pops out of the woodwork.

 

Chuck's advice about attempting to remove the mekugi is great, there is one more possibility which is that it is in the form of two sleeves that are a friction fit in each other, really worth having someone who knows what they are doing take a look.

 

As to what you paid for it, well I can hear the sound of a lot of people banging their heads on the table and muttering, "75 Euro, 75 Euro, why don't I ever find anything like that!"

 

 

Enjoy!

 

All the best.

[Kmad]

Thank you all for your replies. If I can get the handle off I will take pictures and put them up here for your appraisal.

I promise I will look after the sword and do nothing to compromise it in any way.

If anyone would like any more pictures just ask but Januaty in rainy Ireland is not the best for sword photography

Kind regards to you all for being so helpful.

Ken

[raaay]

Ken

 

contact the Irish Token Society, for some local help .

[Dave R]

 I think what you have there is the two piece metal mekugi (retaining pin). The older style is two pieces, one of which friction fits inside the other. The later style has the narrower piece screw into the other.

[TheGermanBastard]

To whom it may conern: I have pulled my offer on the sword so no competition from me. Good luck to all interested buyers. Out of curiosity I hope we may see the Nakago

[Kmad]

To whom it may conern: I have pulled my offer on the sword so no competition from me. 

Hi Luis,

 

quiet an unusual post to be honest.

 

I am a very infrequent poster here but I am quiet up to speed on "Honourable forum etiquette" from other forums.

 

I read your comment as trying to hinder a sale or get the other purchaser to lower their offer.

 

to observers the following is the Time line of interaction between Luis and I.

 

I never offered the sword in question for sale, he instigated the potential purchase, I inform him what others are offering with no mention that I was going to sell for that price and then he slams the door and walk away like a child.

 

I read PM interaction as personal and to be left there.

 

To Luis: Maybe your purchasing technique works, I deal a lot, I collect a lot and I find being fair, open and pleasant works a lot better, maybe you should try it and see if it works for you too.

 

 

Moderator I apologise for the miss use of a discussion on swords but I needed to say this.

 

Again thanks to all who have Contributed to this discussion to Luis I say nothing.

 

Ken  

[Brian]

Why do I get the feeling that newcommers who post swords here asking for advice get bombarded with offers to purchase in private all the time by many members?
I am not happy with that at all. Seems some make a regular business out of this forum and give little back. And I am not talking about any one member here, but this seems a good place to address this.
How many members here buy swords in private that are not in the commercial section? How many offers get sent out?
On some forum, private deals are discouraged or even blocked. It would be easy for me to turn off the private messaging feature, or make it a paid-for enhanced feature.
Let's not make this a problem. And new members are encouraged to ask about offers (without naming names) to make sure they are not taken advantage of.

[Stephen]

Yes very shady indeed.

Back to org problem. So you cant see daylight thur the hole. Sorry if i missed that point.

[Kmad]

Yes Stephen I can see daylight through the hole

 

Now one thing I did not mention is that the Tsuba is loose and there is space from either missing seppa or the  handle has slipped downward 

 

but if I can see through the hole this implies (in my mind)  the holes in the tsuka  is lined up with the hole in the tang so the blade is not held by anything other than friction (or rust) 

 

 the hole for the menuki are different diameter from one side to the other further implying the wedge shaped menuki would have gone here at one stage

 

Thanks for interest,

 

Ken 

[Stephen]

Id lay a blanket on table..remove blade from saya place it on blanket slowly lightly tap tsuba on table edge..if nothing gives or moves stop.

If you start to see tang in the hole continue.

[Stephen]

Did you give it a go?

[Kmad]

Hi Stephen

I am meeting with an Irish collector once we arrange a suitable time, so i will leave well enough alone in the interim.

Ken

[Stephen]

Looking forward to out come.

[Kmad]

Well I got it apart the peg . It was a friction fit in two parts just pushed together, very tightly

I made a dowel that fitted the larger hole and pushed out the smaller diameter inner sleeve came apart reasonably easily

I think someone may have tried to removed handle with some force as the copper or brass was a bit dented

 

No markings on the tang but holes from a re mount you guys will be able to discern something from the shape I hope.

 

The tsuba is quiet nice and intricid

So can anything be learned from this development

Any extra pictures no issue.

 

Thanks all for your interest.

 

Ken

[Kmad]

For sake of completion this is the Tool I used

[Stephen]

Nice tool...table wouldn't have worked good call.

[Ganko]

Good work, looks like a koto period nakago.

[Rivkin]

Nice! My personal vote would be on Muromachi.

 

Kirill R.

[Tom Darling]

Everything is original. I agree it's Muromachi period. 

 

 

Tom D.