How do they do it?

[16k]

Hi guys,

 

I am the proud and happy owner of this sword (thank you Ed for the whole transaction  )

 

http://yakiba.com/Kat_Dotanuki.htm

 

Now, if you remember, this sword was already discussed in a previous thread, debating it potentially being Gimei and having hagire, yadi, yada...

 

iIt turned out being shoshin and receiving kanteisho.

And since I’m always eager to learn, I’d like you to try and explain me how the NTHK did it. I know the answer might be as simple as “they have experience” or “they have extensive databases “, but is it just that, or are there things I don’t see?

 

Let me first tell you why I’m asking:

 

Originally, this sword was sold as a Dōtanuki from the Muromachi period. It was a logical assumption after all. 99% of the sources you find on that school place them in Muromachi Momoyama period. The Bakumatsu swords by that school are rarely mentioned.

 

Then there’s the name : Koyama Kozure no Suke. Many sources say Masakuni’s name was Oyama/Koyama (sources can’t seem to settle for one)

 

—-> therefore: Muromachi blade!

 

Now, let’s forget for a second that we have a signature and concentrate on the sugata. Ubu, rather straight, tapering very visible, yasurime are there but hard to see (in hand, the patina looks black, not as clear as in the pictures)

 

—> therefore, based on sugata, looks rather Kanbun, which excludes Muromachi.

 

And then, it comes back from Shinsa and it turns out to be Shinshinto (okay, I can see some dark spots above the Hamon in some areas) and they go so far as giving a ten year frame: Kansei!

 

So my question: How do they do this magic?

[SAS]

Time travel? Remote viewing?  

[Alex A]

Maybe the steel, preservation of nakago and their database of mei.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Send it through NBTHK & see if they get the same attribution, JP.

[Brian]

Signed by Gordon Robson, so I have confidence in their decision.
But maybe worthwhile contacting him and asking for a bit of elaboration? I don't think he's unapproachable.

[Jacques D.]

IMHO only NBTHK shinsa is trustable.  

[ROKUJURO]

There was a tendency in SHIN SHINTO times to copy old blades. While mostly KOTO blades were used as template, perhaps yours was made looking at a classic KANBUN sample? Or the new owner wanted it exactly like that? Swords were probably not made for stockage but on request only.

[16k]

Signed by Gordon Robson, so I have confidence in their decision.

But maybe worthwhile contacting him and asking for a bit of elaboration? I don't think he's unapproachable.

Oh, I trust the result, no question about that, it's just that I'm wondering what they see that I'm missing. I've never witnessed a shinsa and I wonder what tools they have at their disposal.

[Alex A]

When I first looked at the mei, first thought was that it did not look Muromachi Dotanuki.

 

Apparently, samurai were rather fond of Dotanuki blades.

[Alex A]

IMHO only NBTHK shinsa is trustable.  

 

Thats one hell of a statement Jacques.

 

End of day, all just opinions.

[Jean]

They have huge mei data base. They first begin to check the mei with their data base. If it fits, you have your kanteisho. No need and no time for a classical kantei. Sugata/sori/hamon down the sink.

[Alex A]

The way i see it, cant argue with a shinsa panel, especially from images.

 

They have it in hand and say the mei is legit.

 

Is it Kanbun shape?,sori at 1.43 cm.  See "Kanbun" around 0.6cm and almost straight, that's not to say you wont find lots of regular curved blades made in that period. 

 

Not sure on the width of this blade at the pointed end, sometimes wider blades do appear straighter in images, Dotanuki made wide blades at the pointed end.

 

Don't see much info on later Dotanuki, be good to find out more.

 

Congrats Jean-Pierre, 

[16k]

Just to clarify, I love that sword and this thread was just created because I want to improve my knowledge!

 

@ Jean: I'm afraid this is all there is to it and that their magic is essentially digital knowledge. How much would I give to have access to the NTHK and NBTHK archives!

 

@ Alex: Thank you for the congrats!

And since you're mentioning it, if anyone has info on the Dotanuki school, especially Shinshinto period, I'd be happy if you could share it.

[Ed]

"IMHO only NBTHK shinsa is trustable."

 

We can always count on Jacques to stir the pot.  Seriously, I can not understand that mindset and Jacques is not alone. 

Isn't the NBTHK the only group who was ever found guilty of corruption and the issuance of counterfeit papers?

Not accused, GUILTY!

 

Yet, they are more trustworthy than others, please!

 

The recently deceased Yoshikawa of the NTHK was a second generation appraiser and tsukamakishi for the Imperial household.  His father Yoshikawa senior was an incredible polisher and appraiser.  The second generation Yoshikawa grew up with swords and was taught by one of the absolute best, his father.

 

Miyano san of the NTHK-NPO is the oldest living sword appraiser in Japan.  He starts his day, every day doing sword kantei.  As he is now in his eighties, he has done this longer, way longer than most of you have been alive.

 

JP, the statements above in part answer your question "what tools do they have". To summarize in a word, experience. 

These guys have seen and studied more great swords than all of us put together and more than 99.99% of us ever will.

 

In regards to Kens statement about sending it to the NBTHK to see if you get the same results.  You must remember that shinsa is an opinion, not a guarantee as so many western collectors seem to think or promote.

 

Miyano san stated this clearly in Tampa a few years ago. After performing kantei on 15 never seen papered blades and only missing, no let me rephrase that, he disagreed with only two out of the 15.

 

What he said was important, maybe the most important and honest thing I have heard one of these guys say: 

"You must remember this is only my opinion, someone else may have a different opinion".

 

So, yes if submitted to another organization, or resubmit to the same organization you may receive a different opinion (result).

This is why Ken Mack used to say, "Shinsa three times, before removing a mei once".

 

The main reason you hear negative comments about any of the groups, is generally due to their opinion differing from the owners. This includes attributions that differ from the owner hoped for or being rejected as gimei, again not what the owner wanted.

Because the shinsa team differs in their opinion, "they don't know what they are talking about", or "They are wrong". I have heard these comments time and time again.

 

Are any of the shinsa teams perfect? No.  Are they better than 99.99% of western collectors? You betcha. 

 

Are they the hands down the most educated and dedicated scholars in the world when it comes to Nihonto? Absolutely.

[Alex A]

Most I have found is two swords listed as Shinshinto Dotanuki, but nothing of the school during the late Edo period and would be great if anyone can add some info.

 

To be honest, there isnt a great deal written about the Muromachi school. Known as "country smiths" which kind of refers to them lacking in some way, but the truth is they made reliable swords for battle, sometimes very wide and thick. During the Edo period there would be no need for such blades.

 

If you find anything out, be glad to hear, cheers.

[16k]

So, in the end, looks like the answer was in my question: experience and database. Too bad, I was hoping to learn more from the pros!

 

@Alex: I may have found a few more swords listed as Shinshinto Dōtanuki. I’ll see if I can find them again for you. I have some stuff about the school, mainly the Muromachi era but you probably have that too as I got it from the usual books and from some websites. I also have something in French. It’s not much but if you’re interested, I could translate it and post it for you. You won’t learn much more than you probably already now though.

 

Thank you all for your enlightening replies and the PMs you’ve sent me. They’ve been very...informative!

 

Sorry for some if I opened a can of worms, my intention was only in learning more on the process/tools experts use in a Shinsa and go to bed less stupid than when I woke up!   

[Yuradneprov]

I agree with a couple folks on this thread, you should send it to the NBTHK. A lot of complaints the the nthk not trustworthy. Just saying.

[16k]

To be honest Yura, I don’t really care if the papers are trustworthy or not. Papers are useful for reselling. I have them, if I ever want to resell, well they are here, but I don’t intend to resell a sword I love. My swords are part of my history, they symbolize an episode of my life and a sword that is beautiful remains beautiful, whether it is shoshin or not.

 

Papers are for people who want to make a profit and as I said in one of the threads about heirloom, my swords will be given, not sold, to members of the forum I trust to keep them healthy rather than pass them to someone who would buy them just to boast he has a Japanese sword and hack at bushes in the backyard. Profit has never driven my hobbies.

[Ed]

I will say that when the papers on this sword came back stating Shinshinto I was taken aback.  I have never seen any written information on the topic of Shinshinto Dotanuki smiths.  It was signed with a smith name it might be easier, but as is. ????

[16k]

I will say that when the papers on this sword came back stating Shinshinto I was taken aback.  I have never seen any written information on the topic of Shinshinto Dotanuki smiths.  It was signed with a smith name it might be easier, but as is. ????

 

Likewise!

 

I remember reading a description from a company that makes Shinken called Yari No Hanzo. they sell Dōtanuki for tameshigiri made in longquan. In their description, they were speaking about the famous Dōtanuki Bakumatsu blades. I remember laughing at that because in my mind, Dōtanuki were Muromachi swords. Well, turns out they were right too. I’d really like to find more about them and know how, from almost complete disappearance they came back again into the light about two centuries later.

[SAS]

Most I have found is two swords listed as Shinshinto Dotanuki, but nothing of the school during the late Edo period and would be great if anyone can add some info.

 

To be honest, there isnt a great deal written about the Muromachi school. Known as "country smiths" which kind of refers to them lacking in some way, but the truth is they made reliable swords for battle, sometimes very wide and thick. During the Edo period there would be no need for such blades.

 

If you find anything out, be glad to hear, cheers.

 

I do not think that the samurai who lived during the  Edo period could have assumed that there was no need for battle ready blades, as their whole focus was on being ready for battle at a moment's notice. It is our retrospective that allows us to make such judgements; at the time, they probably wanted the best sword they could afford....how many were dismayed and disemboweled when the flashy hamon sword was broken in a duel by a superiorly made sword? It is a common theme in chanbarra films

[Alex A]

Hi Steve, i should have been more specific. I was refering to swords from around the Momoyama period, wide thick with longer kissaki. Once owned one, a Dotanuki, a beast of a sword, wouldnt want to use it in an Edo duel as it was very heavy, that one came from Ed too. 

 

I have a sword here that looks an obvious Nanbokucho, wide, o-suriage, but it was listed as Muromachi. I asked the dealer about this, and his reply was that some schools (country smiths), maybe took a while to catch on with the mainstream. I think sometimes its easy to put things in brackets.

[raynor]

The main reason you hear negative comments about any of the groups, is generally due to their opinion differing from the owners.

 

I do believe we have a bullseye.

[Vermithrax16]

I do believe we have a bullseye.

I second this observation

[Tom Darling]

We'll, yes it's subjective. It's an opinion, however, good opinion is more important than a useless fact.  But, resubmitting the sword to the same NTHK, what did you expect, of course they wouldn't change their mind, bad for business. You like it that's all that matters. Cheers.

 

Tom D.

[Yuradneprov]

My intent wasnt to upset or put you down jp. It's a beautiful sword and if you like it that is all that matters. As far as what I stated is my personal opinion and what I've heard from several people. Not that big a deal. Shouldn't have said anything

[Peter Bleed]

I think that his sword has ALL of the evaluation it needs or deserves. Sending it thru another team MIGHT provide different opinions, but IMHO it won't yield more useful information. That thing in the boshi absolutely is NOT a hagiri. It is a forging kizu - and these things happen. And the Dotanuki guys were a line of country smiths. What more is there to say.

This is a perfectly legitimate Edo period sword.

Peter

[Rivkin]

Very hard to guess from photographs alone. Just looking at them, the nakago does not look shinshinto, and the default attribution for Dotanuki pieces like that one tends to be something like Tensho or more likely Keicho. Maybe they saw something in the work that was shinshinto-ish. 

 

Very great chance submission to NBTHK will not result in absolutely any new information whatsoever here. The papers yes, will be issued - to Dotanuki. Maybe, and I very seriously doubt that, with an addition of say, later generation. With a country school like this one, simple attribution to den is usually sufficient. They will not care that much whether its Edo or Muromachi, frankly there is not much of collectability differential here.

Were this a big name and they would feel the work is not by a particularly famous first generation, they would do a courtesy of maybe adding an exact era or generation, or at least saying a later generation. I doubt it will be the case here.

If really good photos are made we can try to guess here what was the trigger, but it can be an attribution issued with not much certainty.

Otherwise, it is a general-name-Sengaku-smith blade. Can't be judged by name. Can't be judged by attribution. There are Bizen Kiyomitsu that are absolute and irredeemable garbage and there are very few that are very good. Has to be judged on its own legs.

 

Kirill R.

[Alex A]

The trigger, dimensions, maybe the steel, depth and style of the chiselling in the mei compared to Koto (just an idea, you would need to see lots of Koto, which ive not) ,nakago shape, mei itself, difficult without all the resources 

 

Anyways,  defo Looks Dotanuki, stout, nice blade.

 

Never read of country smiths producing kazu- uchimono, might be an interesting thread.

[Jacques D.]

"IMHO only NBTHK shinsa is trustable."

 

We can always count on Jacques to stir the pot.  Seriously, I can not understand that mindset and Jacques is not alone. 

Isn't the NBTHK the only group who was ever found guilty of corruption and the issuance of counterfeit papers?

Not accused, GUILTY!

 

Yet, they are more trustworthy than others, please!

 

The recently deceased Yoshikawa of the NTHK was a second generation appraiser and tsukamakishi for the Imperial household.  His father Yoshikawa senior was an incredible polisher and appraiser.  The second generation Yoshikawa grew up with swords and was taught by one of the absolute best, his father.

 

Miyano san of the NTHK-NPO is the oldest living sword appraiser in Japan.  He starts his day, every day doing sword kantei.  As he is now in his eighties, he has done this longer, way longer than most of you have been alive.

 

JP, the statements above in part answer your question "what tools do they have". To summarize in a word, experience. 

These guys have seen and studied more great swords than all of us put together and more than 99.99% of us ever will.

 

In regards to Kens statement about sending it to the NBTHK to see if you get the same results.  You must remember that shinsa is an opinion, not a guarantee as so many western collectors seem to think or promote.

 

Miyano san stated this clearly in Tampa a few years ago. After performing kantei on 15 never seen papered blades and only missing, no let me rephrase that, he disagreed with only two out of the 15.

 

What he said was important, maybe the most important and honest thing I have heard one of these guys say: 

"You must remember this is only my opinion, someone else may have a different opinion".

 

So, yes if submitted to another organization, or resubmit to the same organization you may receive a different opinion (result).

This is why Ken Mack used to say, "Shinsa three times, before removing a mei once".

 

The main reason you hear negative comments about any of the groups, is generally due to their opinion differing from the owners. This includes attributions that differ from the owner hoped for or being rejected as gimei, again not what the owner wanted.

Because the shinsa team differs in their opinion, "they don't know what they are talking about", or "They are wrong". I have heard these comments time and time again.

 

Are any of the shinsa teams perfect? No.  Are they better than 99.99% of western collectors? You betcha. 

 

Are they the hands down the most educated and dedicated scholars in the world when it comes to Nihonto? Absolutely .

 

Western dealer opinion + straw man, nothing more....