Female breast plate

[Nickupero]

I though this would be an interesting discussion, saw it on yahoo and seems like the listing was pulled so no longer active 

Maybe someone here picked it up, was curious to know more about it if anyone wants to chime in. Looks a little crude with the inlays but an interesting piece nonetheless. 

 

[Nickupero]

[Bugyotsuji]

The paperwork for what it is worth says it is from Gen 元 Yuan, taken as spoil from the invading Mongols in Kamakura times.

[Tigerinbamboo]

I've seen a lot of "ancient" female breast plates of recent manufacture from India. None quite like that.

 

Kathleen

[Bazza]

Waaall, lots of possibilities.  The top general's Mother-in-Law.  Perhaps a general or eunuch with a severe case of Gynecomastia...

 

Very interesting nonetheless.

 

BaZZa.

[Tigerinbamboo]

BaZZa,

 

there were many female warriors amongst the Chinese and the Japanese, but dedicated armor is extremely rare. The only examples I've been able to find are in museums.

 

Breast plates like this, in my experience, are modern fakes. If I'd seen this example, I might have purchased it, just to have it authenticated vs debunked.

 

Cheers, Kathleen

[Bugyotsuji]

Kathleen, maybe you could start a female warrior thread?

[Tigerinbamboo]

Bugyotsuji,

 

I'm actually trying to create a female samurai website. It's an ongoing project.

 

Cheers, Kathleen

[Bazza]

Kathleen said:

> there were many female warriors amongst the Chinese and the Japanese

 

I would like to read much more about these lady warriors.  I have seen a YouTube video of a naginata class in Japan with women.  It is common (?) knowledge that samurai women defended the home with naginata - and probably yari and sword??  The only woman in Japanese sword history I've read about is the lady who accompanied Takeda Shingen on his campaigns.  More strength to you Kathleen with your website.  Perhaps we could watch it unfold and evolve??

 

Best regards,

BaZZa.

[Tigerinbamboo]

BaZZa,

 

Stephen Turnbull has an excellent book on samurai women. That would be a good place to start.

 

Best, Kathleen

[vajo]

Very cool piece Nick. Thanks for showing it.

[Alex A]

I've seen a lot of "ancient" female breast plates of recent manufacture from India. None quite like that.

 

Kathleen

 

Funny you mention india, I keep bumping into medieval European arms and armour, made in india.

 

 

Interesting Nick.

[IanB]

It looks to me as if is really a backplate and the two embossed regions are for the shoulder-blades. The way the shoulder-straps are shaped also suggests this, since if it were a breastplate the fastening rings would be just behind the shoulders.  I have to confess my initial reaction was that it was totally 'Mickey Mouse', but having really looked at it I am not too sure. If you look really carefully, there are key-fret decorations at the waist and around the arm holes, the rings are lap-welded and there are very distressed leather edgings. It may well be what the label says.

Ian Bottomley. 

[Luc T]

I also thought it is a backplate, because of the shoulder straps (watagami).

A Mongolian provenance seems Also plausible.

[Justin Grant]

Ian and Luc,

 

That makes sense. And I'm assuming the crude Fudo bonji and the crude 3 toed dragons are much later additions, because I thought Mongol Dragons had/have 4 toes like the Chinese.

 

Interesting piece.

[Shogun8]

Something about this piece gives me the heebie jeebies...

[Justin Grant]

I think, in my pedestrian opinion, that the child like Japanese dragon's painted on it are certainly not 13th Century Mongol. The design, if for females, beside poorly rounded and finished, gives a whole new meaning to lift and separate, to an unnatural degree for any female. Additionally, looking at the outside, the "cleavage" area looks like a bone representation of a spine, and worse, in the inside, these are presented by protruding nodules that would absolutely be painful for anyone wearing this.

 

Just my opinion, I've only a cursory understanding of Mongol armor, and know nothing of female Japanese armor.

[IanB]

A big problem here is that there is very little to compare it with. The Royal Armouries in Leeds has only one item: a Mongol helmet bowl with silver overlay of shamanistic figures and tendrils so the decorative technique is OK. The usual source of information - Stone's Glossary' has failed to help. I will have a search in the Royal Armouries library next time I go into work but don't hold your breath.

Ian Bottomley

[Shogun8]

Whether it's a breastplate or a back plate or for male or females, the proportions just look off...

[Ed]

Justin, I think what you are seeing as nodules protruding into the inside is an optical illusion.  Look at the last photo showing the dragon and you see the nodules protruding to the outside.  The inside, while it does look to be protruding, I think they are protruding to the outside with the camera producing this illusion.  I could be wrong, but that is how it appears to me in the photo.

[Alex A]

No nothing of armour, but the patina looks genuine, pitted, remnant lacquer.

 

The weird thing though is the dragons. Just looking at the the one on the right, looks like it was done quite recently, with very little loss. They just don't look right.

[Justin Grant]

No nothing of armour, but the patina looks genuine, pitted, remnant lacquer.

 

The weird thing though is the dragons. Just looking at the the one on the right, looks like it was done quite recently, with very little loss. They just don't look right.

The dragons are child-like and of low quality. Look at the old pattern on the edging of the plate, and how crisp and clean and well executed these are. The scales on the dragons fail to connect, cross borders, etc. Not the same hand or skill, forgetting they are not the proper dragons for a Mongol to start with. How old are the applications? Not my guess, but I'd bet a proper dinner that they are not original.

[Alex A]

The dragons are child-like and of low quality. Look at the old pattern on the edging of the plate, and how crisp and clean and well executed these are. The scales on the dragons fail to connect, cross borders, etc. Not the same hand or skill, forgetting they are not the proper dragons for a Mongol to start with. How old are the applications? Not my guess, but I'd bet a proper dinner that they are not original.

 

Agree, unusual. 

[Nickupero]

Thanks for adding your opinions... interesting.

I did feel some points were off, especially those dragons. Honestly they're a little tough on the eyes l

[Tigerinbamboo]

I learned from Kelly Schmidt that the seller, who worked at a samurai museum, also thought it was a back plate from a Japanese dou.

 

From what I've been able to learn about Mongolian armour (which is very little), they always fought on horseback, and their armour was light and lamellar, over several layers of fabric. Women wore very similar armour (no boob plates).

 

So, probably not a Mongolian gal's wardrobe. And seriously, what girl wants to look like a guy's backside, anyway?

 

????, Kathleen

[Steffieeee]

As a general Eastern arms and armour dealer for 25 years+ this looks like a pretty obvious crude fake to me!

[Peter Bleed]

This has been a very interesting thread and I appreciate the insights that have been shared. I have no expertise about this topic and my opinion has shifted and changed. There certainly has been lots of interest and close inspection. I will not vulgarize the discourse, but I think it may be safe to say that this thread shows that sword collectors are NOT "Leg men.".

Peter

[SAS]

The geometry more closely resembles frontal armor, notwithstanding the provenance or lack thereof....

[Ed]

Fake or not, I don't know, but looking at this listing again, the description states: 後胴のみ - rear trunk (plate) only.

[Chishiki]

Hi. This book is on yahoo at the moment. Mark