Menuki advice

[dwmc]

Hello members,

 

I need a little advice with a fairly nice wakizashi I've owned for a few years. I bought it at a antique store liquidation sale.

Unfortunately, as with many swords you find, it is of course, not with out a bit of damage. At some point the menuki was removed from the tsuka. I have a set of Edo era dragon menuki which in (color) at least seem to match, but I've hesitated to send it off for re-wrap using the dragon menuki because I can't seem to convince myself dragon menuki are appropriate.

 

I feel as though, (with out ever really knowing obviously) the original menuki were most likely Kiri-mon type. I would appreciate a few additional thoughts from anyone interested as to how they would proceed. Would the more appropriate option be to purchase a Kiri-mon type menuki? If anyone happens to have a set of reasonable priced Paulowania type menuki, please contact me...

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Dave M.

[Dave R]

 You have a very strong "black and gold" theme with the F/K, I would stick with that regardless of form. How old are the dragon menuki?

[Blazeaglory]

I really like your Tsuba and F/K.

 

Now, most die hard collectors on this site will tell you to stick with the current Paulowania theme/menuki but as Dave said above, just stay with the gold/black theme and you should be alright. Gold dragon menuki would look really good but if you can find a decent pair of Paulowania menuki, go for it.

[dwmc]

Hi Dave, Yes I agree, strong black and gold no matter the style. I'm not sure the age of the dragon menuki, I would guess early/mid Edo...

 

Thanks,

 

Dave M.

[dwmc]

I really like your Tsuba and F/K.

 

Now, most die hard collectors on this site will tell you to stick with the current Paulowania theme/menuki but as Dave said above, just stay with the gold/black theme and you should be alright. Gold dragon menuki would look really good but if you can find a decent pair of Paulowania menuki, go for it.

Ok, Thanks Dwain, appreciate the opinion.

 

Dave M.

[Austus]

I like those dragon menuki.  

 

Nice photos.  Can we see the blade??

[Ganko]

There are no laws written or unwritten regarding your quandary. After having observed many old original mountings for a number of decades, I find there is frequently no apparent rhyme nor reason for menuki choices. Non-Japanese individuals have an inclination to make all the fittings ensuite which may have not been the original configuration.  The original choice may have related to personnel preference, zodiac year of birth or availability? Late Edo period mountings where all the fittings are by the same artisan, would most certainly have had matching menuki. In your situation I feel the dragons would be fine as long as they are of a comparable quality/time period relative to the rest of the fittings. You should definitely have the tsuka wrapped by a properly skilled individual. (Incidentally, your images have the menuki oriented improperly) My two cents worth.

[dwmc]

I like those dragon menuki.  

 

Nice photos.  Can we see the blade??

Thanks Austus,

 

Sure, I'll post a few.

[dwmc]

There are no laws written or unwritten regarding your quandary. After having observed many old original mountings for a number of decades, I find there is frequently no apparent rhyme nor reason for menuki choices. Non-Japanese individuals have an inclination to make all the fittings ensuite which may have not been the original configuration.  The original choice may have related to personnel preference, zodiac year of birth or availability? Late Edo period mountings where all the fittings are by the same artisan, would most certainly have had matching menuki. In your situation I feel the dragons would be fine as long as they are of a comparable quality/time period relative to the rest of the fittings. You should definitely have the tsuka wrapped by a properly skilled individual. (Incidentally, your images have the menuki oriented improperly) My two cents worth.

Thank you also Tom, Oh yes, only a properly skilled individual will do the wrap and will make sure the menuki are properly placed!

 

Dave M.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Dave,

I could be wrong but it looks like the fuchi & kashira are mismatched; do they belong together?  I doubt you'd want to go to the expense of tsuka-ito if those pieces aren't right.  Also (with the understanding that I haven't seen a good picture of any of these parts and this could be a 2nd error in judgement), the tsuba looks to be quite nice and your dragon menuki may be less so.  The tsuba looks refined and the menuki look to be pedestrian.

Unless you have a better idea, David McDonald next door to you in Montana can do an excellent wrap.

Grey

[dwmc]

Hi Grey,

I honestly can't say if the F/K are a match. You would think fuchi would also have Kiri-mon of some sort. However, the black and gold are very similar in color, and it seems to fit the tsuka as it should. So I just don't know, but if I do decide to have the work done, the fuchi will probably need to remain as is. I feel a bit like you concerning the dragon menuki, I'm sure they are old, but they are not particularly exceptional by any means.

 

I didn't know David McDonald lives in Montana, I'm sure he would do an excellent job!

 

Thanks Grey for taking time to offer an opinion!

 

Dave M.

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Dave , I think that the dragon menuki are of lower quality than the other pieces and will only detract from the piece if you put them on it . I agree with Grey that the fuchi and Kashira are mismatched .

Ian Brooks

[Peter Bleed]

Dave,

you are getting lots of free advice here. I hate to add to the torrent. The dragon menuki do look good. And I agree that the fuchi looks a bit odd. BUT I would retain it unless it is not a comfortable piece. Beyond that, I think this guy really was proud of this kiri mon. I would shop for a set of high quality kiri mon-zukuri menuki. It will be a fun shopping experience and a completely safe result.

Peter

[dwmc]

Thanks Ian, Yes, I'm sure you and Grey are most certainly correct about mismatching F/K. I've had the sword for quite some time and have to admit I've been curious as to why they are not matching. I guess the only thing somewhat similar is the black and gold color.

 

I appreciate your opinion...

 

Dave M.

[dwmc]

Peter,

All advice is welcome. As I mentioned in response to Grey, all be it not what would be considered a match, the fuchi does fit as though it were meant for the tsuka . I some how feel the F/K combination are possibly as they were meant to be. Yes, I'll be looking for some age appropriate kiri-mon menuki.

 

Thanks,

 

Dave M.

[Guido]

I can’t help you with the menuki – but kiri-mon are not hard to find – however, I have a fuchi that seems to be a very close match. Dimensions are

 

outside: 38.59 mm x 22.48 mm x 9.98 mm

inside: 34.43 mm x 17.62 mm x 8.06 mm

 

I paid US$ 65.- for it a while ago, and will sell for cost plus shipping (from Japan).

 

[Ian]

Great gesture Guido. Works a lot better.

Happy new year.

[dwmc]

Guido Sir,

 

I can't express how appreciative I am with your offer. The fuchi would be a perfect match for the kashira. My initial excitement, unfortunately, was quickly deflated by the tape measure.

 

outside: 32.25 mm x 19.55 mm x 6.35 mm

inside :  31.39 mm x 18.79 mm x 5.82 mm

 

My measurements, I think are fairly accurate, or at least close enough to see it probably wouldn't fit properly.

 

But I sincerely Thank You. I've have always admired your knowledge and enjoy reading your NMB comments.

 

Best regards,

 

Dave M.

[Stephen]

Think a good tsuka guy could make it work.

Gman will know.

[dwmc]

Think a good tsuka guy could make it work.

Gman will know.

 

Hey, I'm willing to give it go Stephen. I'm planning to send the tsuka to David McDonald when I get everything sorted out. I guess a slightly larger fuchi would be much better potential than a smaller.

 

I'll PM Guido for purchase and shipping details.

 

Thanks,

 

Dave M.

[Peter Bleed]

It is situation LIKE THIS (!) that make the NMB Wonderful. This is a happy resolution and a good treatment of the object!

Happy 2020!

Peter

[Guido]

Dave, most fuchi are in length between 37.5 and 38.5 mm – 32.25 mm is rather small; I therefore doubt that my fuchi will fit (we're looking at a 6.34 mm difference!), especially in regard to the “flow” of the mounting (the fuchi should be a tad smaller than the koiguchi, or same size at the most).

 

What I do when looking at fittings online for mounting, and in doubt: I print it out to scale (in this case using the bottom view), cut it out, and place it on the koshirae. If you still think it might work, PM me your shipping address – if not, no harm done. And take your time, the fuchi won't go anywhere in the near future. 

 

Of course you could put together my fuchi and your kashira, sell it as a set, and buy a new set in the proper size from the profit made   

[dwmc]

Guido, I double checked my fuchi measurements hoping I was in error. It remained at approx. 32.25 mm, quite small. However, I like your fuchi and wouldn't mind having it in my assorted parts collection. I'll PM you for address and details.

 

Thanks again,

 

Dave M.

[Stephen]

Gman

"we're looking at a 6.34 mm difference!"

 

Yes but thats only 3.17 mm on each side! Lol

 

Dave once you get it hold it next to saya mouth. See what it looks like.

[dwmc]

Gman

"we're looking at a 6.34 mm difference!"

 

Yes but thats only 3.17 mm on each side! Lol

 

Dave once you get it hold it next to saya mouth. See what it looks like.

Will do...

[Blazeaglory]

I can’t help you with the menuki – but kiri-mon are not hard to find – however, I have a fuchi that seems to be a very close match. Dimensions are

 

outside: 38.59 mm x 22.48 mm x 9.98 mm

inside: 34.43 mm x 17.62 mm x 8.06 mm

 

I paid US$ 65.- for it a while ago, and will sell for cost plus shipping (from Japan).

 

 

Very nice!

[dwmc]

Think a good tsuka guy could make it work.

Gman will know.

 

There you go Stephen. The fuchi width is close to perfect. We knew the the length was going to be long by approx. 6 mm. The depth is fine.

 

I think after seeing the fuchi on the tsuka it would be hard not to agree the menuki should be a pair of Paulownia of some type.

After I locate a set of menuki I'll send it to David McDonald and hopefully he can make it all work.

 

Thank you NMB members for your input, and a special thanks to Mr. Schiller for the fuchi.

 

Dave M.