Navy Rinji Model

[Bruce Pennington]

Recently discovered by NIck Komiya at Warrelics:

 

I don't know how relevant it is to the discussions here, but the navy also issued a "Last Ditch" Rinji spec directive for officer swords on 27th March 1945. Directive Number 54 said "1: Gilding, Gold Colored Metal and Cherry branch engravings are to cease, 2:Sarute not to be attached, 3:Only one Haikan (scabbard ring) to be present, 4: Use of animal skins to be minimized, 5: Push button type locks to be changed to tie-cord type, 6: Scabbards to be wrapped in tree bark and be finished with black lacquer.

By that time, the navy had lost its ships and most members got deployed as land troops, so it is understandable if the above Rinji spec got to be associated with the NFL.

The PX sword discussed here seems to consist mainly of parts matching the description above, but with some gold colored parts thrown in to beautify them.

I asked for clarification on the fuchi design, and he said:

 

"In Japanese, point 1 is 「金鍍金、金色金属、枝桜毛彫及彫刻ヲ用ヒザルコト」, which says no gold color nor engraved or relief adornment, so a "plain Jane".　This directive is mentioned in the Ohmura site as well as Wikipedia, so it should be common knowledge to Gunto collectors already."

 

So this explains the odd-ball navy gunto with one haikan (ashi).  I'm not talking about the souvenir sold with mixed army/navy fittings, but actual navy gunto.  If memory serves, I saw one in combat saya with single haikan.  If anyone has an example, I'd love to get it posted here.

[Bruce Pennington]

I have one that may fit the description.  It's a late-war, undated, Toyokawa navy arseanl blade in combat saya with 1 haikan.  The thing that doesn't seem to fit is that the fuchi is decorated normally.

 

[Shamsy]

I've been looking for a photo I saved a long time ago that meets that description, Bruce. Can't find it easily though.

 

I don't think the above sword is suitable, as it fails most of the criteria listed in the order. I thought that pattern of sword had been fairly definitively verified as a souvenir in prior discussion?

[PNSSHOGUN]

There would've been considerable stock of fittings still available even at that stage in the war.

[Austus]

Bruce, when I clicked on the underlined "sword" I got an Amazon page. 

 

Looking forward to more on this topic.

[Bruce Pennington]

Bruce, when I clicked on the underlined "sword" I got an Amazon page. 

 

Looking forward to more on this topic.

Sorry, Austus, I think that site does a similar thing that Wikipedia does by linking key words to various other discussions about a keyword.  Nick was referring to the gunto of the thread's topic.

[Bruce Pennington]

I've been looking for a photo I saved a long time ago that meets that description, Bruce. Can't find it easily though.

 

I don't think the above sword is suitable, as it fails most of the criteria listed in the order. I thought that pattern of sword had been fairly definitively verified as a souvenir in prior discussion?

Steve,

It has been 99% proven.  But Nick's new info is possibly an end-of-the-war Rinji mod that served as the model/inspiration for the post-war souvenirs.

 

My example is probably what John, and Nick, said - they still were going to use parts available until they ran out.  Only the saya of mine fits the Navy Rinji concept.

[Kiipu]

Bruce, when I clicked on the underlined "sword" I got an Amazon page.

 

NLF Gunto Discussion

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/nlf-gunto-discussion-672281/

[PNSSHOGUN]

Well I can't honestly say I have ever seen a late war Kai Gunto without the normal decorated fittings, the quality was certainly lower though. In some ways wouldn't it have been easier for the fittings manufacturers to continue using the current moulds rather than creating new ones?

[Dave R]

Well I can't honestly say I have ever seen a late war Kai Gunto without the normal decorated fittings, the quality was certainly lower though. In some ways wouldn't it have been easier for the fittings manufacturers to continue using the current moulds rather than creating new ones?

 

 All the evidence is that they did just that. Regarding moulds, the problem was the hand finishing rather than the casting, no vacuum casting in 1940's industry so everything cast had to be finished off

 

Remember though, as far as the Japanese Army & Navy was concerned they were about to enter a long drawn out attrition end game, with the aim of sickening off the allies with high casualties. The Japanese army in China had no intention of surrendering at all.So a stripped down bare bones version of all war equipment made sense.... 

 

 Thankfully, for everyone's sake that did not happen!

[Bruce Pennington]

From the Warrelics discussion:

[Bruce Pennington]

Got another one from this thread:  

 

It has standard tsuka hardware, but the roughly made, black painted saya (normally covered by leather).

 

I'd like to add this to the discussion on Warrelics, but cannot find it there.  Anyone have the link to that discussion?

[dwmc]

On ‎12‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 11:03 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

So this explains the odd-ball navy gunto with one haikan (ashi).  I'm not talking about the souvenir sold with mixed army/navy fittings, but actual navy gunto.  If memory serves, I saw one in combat saya with single haikan.  If anyone has an example, I'd love to get it posted here.

 

Bruce, I somehow missed your original post back Dec. 2019. However, after reading it today, I realized one of my sword may be similar to the type you were requesting to see.

 

I believe there must have been somewhat of a transition period after the March 1945 directive regarding the Kai-gunto. The swords I own attempts to follow the mandate in the sense it has plain unadorned Kubuto-gane and Ishizuke. The fuchi, koiguchi, ashi and semegane all have sakura blossoms, yet are intentionally painted black, I suspect in order to comply with the directive. Also, one hanger has been eliminated, as well as both rising sun seppa. Some of the black paint on the fuchi is missing due to handling.

 

Dave M.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

8 hours ago, dwmc said:

 

Bruce, I somehow missed your original post back Dec. 2019. However, after reading it today, I realized one of my sword may be similar to the type you were requesting to see.

 

I believe there must have been somewhat of a transition period after the March 1945 directive regarding the Kai-gunto. The swords I own attempts to follow the mandate in the sense it has plain unadorned Kubuto-gane and Ishizuke. The fuchi, koiguchi, ashi and semegane all have sakura blossoms, yet are intentionally painted black, I suspect in order to comply with the directive. Also, one hanger has been eliminated, as well as both rising sun seppa. Some of the black paint on the fuchi is missing due to handling.

 

Dave M.

Yes, Dave, that's a good example.  No stippling on the kabutogane and haikan (ashi), and blackened.  To be in full compliance, there would be no blossoms on the fuchi and koiguchi either, but like you say, they were using what they had at the time.  

 

Nice one Dave!

 

[Dave R]

You can also find Army versions similar to this. Not Rinji Seishiki, but a plain version of the 98. I have found a few online, usually 

 

 

 

 

with the field saya, and variable quality blades. I just saw them as economy versions, but now I see them as late war. I wonder if we can provoke Mr Komiya into finding the documentation.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 7, 2020 by Dave R

[Bruce Pennington]

Dave,

For the life of me, I can't find the thread this was discussed on Warrelics. 

[Kiipu]

1 hour ago, Bruce Pennington said:

For the life of me, I can't find the thread this was discussed on Warrelics. 

 

See post #8.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

13 hours ago, Kiipu said:

 

See post #8.

 

Thanks Thomas!  I told you my search skills are bad!!!

 

So, Dave - After checking the thread, Nick didn't provide the document, simply quoted from something.

[Dave R]

8 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Thanks Thomas!  I told you my search skills are bad!!!

 

So, Dave - After checking the thread, Nick didn't provide the document, simply quoted from something.

 

 He probably saw no point in doing so given how few people would be able to make sense of it. His quote is good enough for me though, and settled something that had bugged me a little for some time.

 

[Kiipu]

12 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Thanks Thomas!  I told you my search skills are bad!!!

 

So, Dave - After checking the thread, Nick didn't provide the document, simply quoted from something.

 

No worries as I shamelessly stole one of your pictures without permission and posted it over at WRF!

https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/f216/why-did-army-revive-samurai-sword-design-1934-officers-770851-post2097543/#post2097543

 

1945-no54-late-naval-sword.pdf

[Kiipu]

Two more for Bruce to ponder in his leisure hours.

Help needed to decide on WW2 Japanese Naval Kai Gunto sword

 

[Bruce Pennington]

8 hours ago, Kiipu said:

Two more for Bruce to ponder in his leisure hours.

Help needed to decide on WW2 Japanese Naval Kai Gunto sword

 

Thanks Thomas.  Those 2 are the Toyokawa souvenirs made for the PX after the war, though, and not the late-war Navy Rinji-seishiki.  Better thread for them is the NLF Gunto Discussion thread (which in hindsight, I wish was named Toyokawa Souvenir Sword!).

[Dave R]

Adding to this discussion. A recent purchase that looks perfectly conventional... and then I put a magnet to the metal.... All ferrous though conforming to regulations....

[Bruce Pennington]

Interesting Dave!  From the fuchi and saya, it looks like a re-fitted civil sword, but probably quite late in the war.  What is that same' made of?  Are both the fuchi and kabutogane made of steel?

[Dave R]

 I think it's a bit of a collection of parts. The saya is samurai era with no sign of ever being covered or having a haikan. The tsuba is really nice, shin-gunto style with bright gilding under a splash of black lacquer. The tsuka is well shaped,, tight ito with good knots, and fuchi, menuki and kabutogane are all steel/iron with worn copper plating and gilding as appropriate.  The fuchi was pierced for a chuso retaining clip, but not the tsuka.  The "same" might actually be sandpaper or something similar. A real wartime economy job, but not skimped on the workmanship!

[Bruce Pennington]

Ah, that's the one with the black-painted tsuba! 

1 hour ago, Dave R said:

a collection of parts

A good way to describe it.  Clearly period work, not post-war pieced-together.  A very good example of the stage the industry was in nearing the end of the war.  YET, still better quality, attention to detail than many others we see.  Maybe such detail indicates a shop that had avoided being bombed, and was still operating with their original casts/molds, whereas the ones we see with smooth metal parts, no detail, come from shops that were relocated and/or bombed out that had to start over.

[Bruce Pennington]

Just wanted to add a link to a similar thread: Last Ditch Naval Rinji?

[Bruce Pennington]

Found another possible late-war Navy kaigunto - June 1944 (Munemitsu); single haikan, no gold gilding, plain painted wood saya. HERE.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

A nice example owned by @MichaelSeeley.  Darkened fittings and single haikan, but normal kabutogane.

 

[Kiipu]

I ran across this 伊奈波 made sword and found it interesting in regards to the construction details of the hilt.  Note the use of black electrical tape? underneath the handle wrapping.  One of the swords depicted above seems to have this same feature, noticeable in particular underneath the kabutogane.

Type 97 Naval Kai-gunto