Translation on tachi blade

[ChrisW]

Hey all!

 

I am in the process of obtaining two tachi blades made by the same smith purportedly. Can anyone give me a translation of the following kanji found on one of the blades?

 

Thanks and have a Merry Christmas!

 

~Chris

[SAS]

That looks like a newly made blade, kind of like the Komonjo blades.

[Nobody]

暮立作贰零壹柒 - 暮立(reading?) made 2017

 

Looks most likely Chinese origin.

[ChrisW]

I thought it looked new as well. I wanted to hear the translation but your opinions match my own.

 

Thankfully not a Komonjo, but I am getting strong suspect vibes on it.

[SAS]

Chris, if Moriyama san can't read it, (I think) it is due to the kanji being nonsensical in Japanese, i am assuming. Kanji are Chinese characters used in Japanese, with their own different pronunciations and meanings. But maybe you knew that already....

Also, the nakago looks suspect as well, and is signed katana style, not tachi style....more flags.

[ChrisW]

Thanks Steve! Yes, I am getting lots of red flags at this point. So right now I am gathering information to expose another possible fraudster and hopefully save people some trouble! I have not committed any funds for this.

[Nobody]

I missed the first kanji 夕.

So the first part is 夕暮立 - maybe a proper noun in the context.

 

I guess the blade is from simonlee-sword in Shanghai.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Good for martial arts use if that's what you're after if it's a Simon-Lee sword. One of the better chinese makers.

[ChrisW]

Ah I see.

 

However, the seller is trying to tell me this sword is 500 years old. I am not so sure.. that or some pictures were mismatched.

 

If it is alright, here is the link:   https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tachi-Katatana-Edo-Kamakura-Period/264577595869?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2748.l2649

 

It should still display for you all.

 

They claim the mei frome earlier belongs to another blade that this blade is paired to.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Classic Komonjo fakes, had a good chuckle at the description as well. There are quite impressive for the money as display or just something to mount and use to cut water bottles etc etc.

[ChrisW]

So do you think Komonjo is selling fakes via other names? Or his source is using other sellers too?

[SAS]

500 years?!      5 weeks maybe.......good you asked here before buying.

[SAS]

The first photo you posted is a different sword than the one in the bay listing; huge red flag! Is the seller trying to sucker people in with a bait and switch? Seems that way; also the listing shows the sword as sold for $900, very unlikely.

[Greg F]

Chinese komonjo blade surely. Not a Simon Lee blade imo. The price is similar to his best blades but looks more like komonjo item to me.

Good choice coming here first indeed.

 

Greg

[ChrisW]

Yup, I generally do not buy from eBay unless I check with people here first. I just wanted to get a more general consensus on this fishy listing.

[Nobody]

Chinese komonjo blade surely. Not a Simon Lee blade imo. The price is similar to his best blades but looks more like komonjo item to me.

Good choice coming here first indeed.

 

Greg

One of simonlee blades has the same inscriptin 夕暮立 on its tang.

 

Ref . https://www.ebay.com/itm/T10-Blade-Shirasaya-MM350-T10-steel-clay-tempered-Choji-Hamon-BLADE-by-Simon/173868061646?hash=item287b5813ce:g:4~4AAOSwnr9bUz0z

[Brian]

I usually go with Koichi-san's instincts. I think he has the answer here.

[Greg F]

I believe your right Koichi-san my apologies. He (Simon)seems to be making many different looking blades now compared to when I purchased one years ago. The hamon on the sword in Chris's ebay link just looks so much like a komonjo. Maybe komonjo gets some of their blades from Simon. Simon told me years ago people sometimes sold his swords as old blades and he was against it. I might show him a pic and ask him if its one of his and see his response.

 

Greg

[Greg F]

I sent simon a pic of the blade hopefully he will get back to me but im sure it must be one of his after what Koichi-san said.

Curious about what Simon thinks about his bldes being sold as 500 years old.

 

Greg

[ChrisW]

What of the sword in the actual listing? They said they gave me that mei to show  "The signature I sent was to show you what they look like new my were carbon dated and registered by the Japanese museum of swords and historical artifacts."

 

Which is somewhat humorous as you cannot carbon date metal.. you need a source of constituent carbon.

 

They claim the sword's been in their family for 250 years.

 

Here are the supposed measurements: (attached below)

 

 

 

I want an ironclad case to shut them down. In my mind, there's little chance this is legitimate.

 

[O-Midare]

Wasn't Japan closed off to the west except a few ships allowed for trade in just one port 250 years ago, highly unlikely it would find its way to Texas in the 1770's

[O-Midare]

With this blade I'm afraid all they are selling is a story.

[ChrisW]

Yup I think so too. They claim their family were privateers at that time, I think they're just trying very hard to offload spurious goods as modern day pirates.

[16k]

I think you are a little hard here!

 

Fake? Certainly! But still a very good looking blade for the price.

[ChrisW]

Yes, but by buying this, we are encouraging this sort of quasi-legal activity.

[16k]

The problem isn’t that they’re selling those blades but rather that they’re trying to pass them for antiques. But seriously, those copies become better and better.

[SteveM]

You've already got as ironclad a case as you will get. The sword itself is proclaiming itself to be from 2017. The date on it is *literally* 2017.

 

贰零壹柒

 

It is a way of writing 2017 that no Japanese smith, now or ever, would employ. A Japanese smith would use the Japanese era name and/or the sexegenary cycle (Chinese zodiac) year marker. The kanji used for "7" on the sword (柒) is not commonly used in Japan. Nothing about the date or the name is Japanese. 

 

There is no need to shut them down. Just walk away. Nobody tries to convince a buyer about a sword's age by using a modern nakago. It insults the intelligence. Just walk away and don't worry about shutting these people down. You will not be able to do this via the internet.

[ChrisW]

True enough Steve, I'll just walk then. Let this post serve to warn people of another charlatan then.

[Greg F]

I sent a pic from the ebay link of the unsigned sword in Chris's link to Simon and he said

" Hi my dear friend. Im pretty sure this abrasive sword is not my work. Both size and scale are wrong . Im pretty sure its made in China. I think its 5 years not 500 as he describes it. But this is just my opinion and thoughts, I hope it can help you.

Thank you for your letter have a nice day. Simon."

 

Greg

[ChrisW]

Tell Simon he is much appreciated!

 

I canceled the order and the seller got very ugly, making threats to have eBay make me pay, legal action, suspend my account, yada yada. They of course did nothing of the sort, so he flung childish insults, relisted the sword, and now claims he is of Japanese history when the seller in question is a Texan con-artist who first claimed Welsh pirate descent. Oh lord, the webs we weave. A shame eBay doesn't give a damn about this sort of thing.