Tanto New find needed help and opinion.

[Jacob1968]

Hi everyone . 

This is my first post.

I wanted to share my happiness. This is yesterday's find at a flea market.

I would like to ask for feedback to help you determine the date, read the inscription accurately.

My Japanese friend encrypted the blacksmith as:

 

Ikkansai Shigetoshi (1838-1906)

 

Can anyone help?

[Ed]

Your friend has translated it correctly.  Can't speculate on the legitimacy of the mei.  The horimono look a bit lower quality than I would expect.  What else are looking to find out?

[Bugyotsuji]

You can run searches in English or Japanese. There's plenty out there, many with photos of signatures to compare.

一貫齋繁寿

[Jacob1968]

Is there no date in the inscription? 

[Stephen]

Hard to tell anything on the other side of nakago.

 

Id be excited to find one in a flea market as well

[Jacob1968]

Hard to tell anything on the other side of nakago.

 

Id be excited to find one in a flea market as well

 

This is surely funny but I don't understand,I am new here 

[Jacob1968]

You can run searches in English or Japanese. There's plenty out there, many with photos of signatures to compare.

一貫齋繁寿

Thank you, I will try to compare.

[Geraint]

Dear Jakub.

 

Hard to tell anything on the other side of nakago.

Id be excited to find one in a flea market as well

 

 

This is surely funny but I don't understand,I am new here  

Nothing funny, if there is a date it will usually be on the other side of the nakago, (tang).  

 

All the best.

 

[Jacob1968]

Thank you very much Ed,Bugyotsuji ,Stephen,Geraint. I greatly appreciate all of your help. Have a Happy Holiday and I hope a Great New Year

All the best.

      Jacob

[cisco-san]

Hi Jacob,

 

first of all welcome on board here !!!

 

Here you can find some Information concerning Japanese Sword care and etiquette

http://nbthk-ab.org/cleaning-maintenance.html

 

and finally from Markus Seskos book information about Ikkansai Shigetoshi:

SHIGETOSHI (繁寿), Keiō (慶応, 1865-1868), Suruga – “Ikkansai Shigetoshi” (一貫斎繁寿), “Sunpu ni oite Miyaguchi Ikkansai Shigetoshi” (於駿府宮口一貫斎繁寿), “Sunpu-jū Ikkansai Shigetoshi” (駿府住一貫斎繁寿), real name Miyaguchi Hachirō (宮口八郎), he was born in the ninth year of Tenpō (天保, 1838) in Shizuoka in Suruga province but moved later to Inaba where he was first a student and later the adopted son of Hamabe Toshinori (浜部寿格), but he later returned to Shizuoka and to his family name Miyaguchi, in Inaba he signed with Hisatoshi (寿俊), later he started to use the gō Ikkansai (一貫斎) and also signed with Shigehiro (繁広), he also worked in Odawara (小田原) in Sagami province, tradition says that he learned the art of horimono engraving from the lineage of Ozaki Suketaka (尾崎助隆), he died January 25th 1906 at the age of 69, dense itame, chōji-midare in nioi-deki or gunome-midare in ko-nie-deki, chūjō-saku

 

 

 

[Stephen]

Jacob 

please show other side of nakago (tang)

if nothing there its not dated

[Curran]

Flip the blade over. Please show the other side of the tang.

 

This line of smiths often dated the blade, but they usually did so on the side opposite where they signed.

[Jacob1968]

Here you are!

[Stephen]

So no date.

IMHO I would have it Polished by professional.

[Jacob1968]

So no date.

IMHO I would have it Polished by professional.

Yes it requires polishing, unfortunately it is not easy to find professional,  around Brussels_I think.

[Jacob1968]

Maybe better light  

[Peter Bleed]

Jacob,

Thanks for sharing information and images about this blade. I have followed the discussion but avoided saying anything - -  recalling Mother's advice "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all..."

But, hey. That's no fun!

IMHO, this little sword has all the earmarks of a "three dollar bill." Celebrating those qualities  actually reveals something about the nature and history of Japanese swords.

The apparent quality of the horimono (the carving on the blade) just isn't there - in my opinion. The dragon is poorly cut, over polished, and strangely placed on the blade. This is not the sort of work that made smith and this line famous. It may be like judging a book by it cover, but I also would be surprised to find a blade by Shigetoshi et al in this kind of shirasaya with a wooden  habaki. Finally, it surfaced in a Belgian flea market. Yes, yes, I know "anything can be anywhere" but that situation seems consistent - to me - with this being what has been called a "Yokohama docks" sword - that is, a piece made on the cheap and marketed to a naive audience.

So that's what I think. What I find interesting to savor in this situation is the fact that Japanese swords have ALWAYS  seemed to have had craftsmen and dealers who were willing to engage in fakery and misrepresentation. Its a jungle out there!

Peter

[Jacob1968]

Jacob,

Thanks for sharing information and images about this blade. I have followed the discussion but avoided saying anything - -  recalling Mother's advice "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all..."

But, hey. That's no fun!

IMHO, this little sword has all the earmarks of a "three dollar bill." Celebrating those qualities  actually reveals something about the nature and history of Japanese swords.

The apparent quality of the horimono (the carving on the blade) just isn't there - in my opinion. The dragon is poorly cut, over polished, and strangely placed on the blade. This is not the sort of work that made smith and this line famous. It may be like judging a book by it cover, but I also would be surprised to find a blade by Shigetoshi et al in this kind of shirasaya with a wooden  habaki. Finally, it surfaced in a Belgian flea market. Yes, yes, I know "anything can be anywhere" but that situation seems consistent - to me - with this being what has been called a "Yokohama docks" sword - that is, a piece made on the cheap and marketed to a naive audience.

So that's what I think. What I find interesting to savor in this situation is the fact that Japanese swords have ALWAYS  seemed to have had craftsmen and dealers who were willing to engage in fakery and misrepresentation. Its a jungle out there!

Peter

• Thanks for expressing your impressions. Unfortunately, the pictures do not fully reflect the impression of the sword. The dragon is engraved on a blade 19 cm long .The engraving is 11.5cm long and what you see in the pictures is its multiplication in reality is fantastic.Be sure it is a real sword it is a real dragon maybe a great forgerie but certainly not "three dollar bill."

[hxv]

Three-dollar bill is an American idiom for “forgery” since there is no such thing as a three-dollar bill in circulation.

 

Hoanh

[Brian]

Not just forgery, but anything where there may be something suspect.
The horimono isn't brilliant work. You need to see great horimono to judge them. The average guy doesn't see what is lacking.
That said, this horimono reminds me of the ones done during WW2 and just after, on soldiers tanto and other swords. I have seen a few dragon done this way.
Combine this with an unusual shape, which is a little awkward...I think we have one of the WW2 tanto made as a homage to great makers or maybe as a pure gimei.
Then again, just my opinion and I am no expert on this.
It is a genuine Japanese tanto, and looks traditionally made, so still a nice item no matter what it is.

[Ed]

Here is a mei for comparison.

[ROKUJURO]

Yes, it requires polishing, unfortunately it is not easy to find professionals  around BrusselsI think.

Jacob,

the main thing is that you like it, and if you want to keep it as your treasure, please NEVER touch the bare blade with your hands or fingers! Then you will be able to admire it for a long time!

P.S. Zenon van Damme used to polish, but generally speaking, you will have to send it to Japan for that.
 

[Jacob1968]

Here is a mei for comparison.

The biggest problem is the image quality from the web

[ROKUJURO]

Images are o.k., MEI are very different.

[Jacob1968]

Images are o.k., MEI are very different.

Any conclusions?

[16k]

I agree that the mei is completely different. I think there are too many different strokes for it to be genuine. Even the yasurime don’t match. I’m afraid you have a Gimei Blade, though I’m reluctant to judge the quality as tanto are not my forte.

[Jacob1968]

I agree that the mei is completely different. I think there are too many different strokes for it to be genuine. Even the yasurime don’t match. I’m afraid you have a Gimei Blade, though I’m reluctant to judge the quality as tanto are not my forte.

somewhere on the internet:

Gimei determination (and shinsa in general) is a very imprecise thing. Even if you get a top expert in Japan to give their opinion, it is still an opinion. They don't have any magic abilities.

I think only the most advanced collectors can even attempt to make a gimei decision. Of course, if important features are "way off", then it might be easy to say gimei.

A less-advanced collector will attempt to simply compare the "handwriting" of the mei to examples in the famous books. But I wouldn't be very confident in the results.

One gimei parameter that is not mentioned much is that the chances of gimei are much higher with certain names. Two that come to mind are Bizen Yasumitsu and Sukesada. I was told by a collector/dealer in Japan that Bizen Yasumitsu has about a 70% chance of being false. If the name is obscure, it is quite unlikely to be gimei (in my opinion).

The general belief is that blades were falsely signed for monetary reasons, to sell to unwary customers. Swordsmithing has always been a business, so there is incentive to make blades that sell for higher prices.

Pete

[Ed]

Then you need to send it to shinsa for the best opinion.  Not much more we can do here.

[Jacob1968]

somewhere on the internet but so beautiful and true:

Thanks for the additional information Pete.

The issue with the mei is not so much the style but the wording. When I was in contact with Markus Sesko about it he seemed to feel it may be an early signature before the smith was given his honorary title. There don’t seem to be any other examples of this exact signature though.

For all the research I’ve done looking for other examples of his work to compare my blade to, I’m not confident about my ability judge what I’m seeing.

I don’t want to get too caught up in wanting it to be genuine. My feeling is that it is based on other examples in pictures, but maybe I’m seeing the things that back that up not the things that undermine it.

I understand what you’re saying about not getting hung up on signatures. I suppose my reason for trying to assess if the mei is genuine or not is mostly that as a novice I don’t really know if it’s a good blade or not, and if the mei is real I would think it should be good, and study it as such.

I’m not in a position to look at any blades other than my own, except in books and online.

Maybe one day I will get a chance to have someone look at it who could tell me more. This blade is the one that got me looking at nihonto in depth and sparked a real interest for me, so even if it is gimei, it’s given me a lot.

Thanks again.

[SAS]

It has a nice shape, if you can afford it, you should have it polished to show its true qualities. I do not know how well the shinsa panels are able to judge out of polish blades, probably they don't spend a lot of time on what they can't see.