What kind of tsuba?

[vajo]

Delete it i have no further interest in a discussion or burning the piece further. 

[Ford Hallam]

Looks to me to be a modern copy or deliberate fake. 

 

I'm in a rush to an appointment but I'll try and explain my reasoning later if I get a chance.

[christianmalterre]

Sorry! but....

 

i do equally agree with the above short observation!

 

It looks horrible!

 

don´t think this is a work done by a reputable school here....

 

Christian

[vajo]

Sorry guys, what? 

[Ganko]

It may have been cleaned in the past and has lost it's original patina?

[Ford Hallam]

I, for one, didn't say it was cast nor Chinese. That would be a strawman argument.

 

What I did say was "Looks to me to be a modern copy or deliberate fake. "

 

 

It's clearly hand made, just not very convincingly at all.

 

For starters the maker has misunderstood what they thought they saw in old work. The genuine article is often well worn and has bits missing etc. BUT the underlying lines and technique was neat and skilfully carried out. In this piece the maker has apparently deliberately allowed the layout to be untidy, thinking that the early work was also poorly arranged. This is a common mistake by fakers.

 

The second very obvious give away is the massively 'disturbed' ground metal around the inlay work, that cushion effect that's in evidence all over the place, that's not typical of genuine old work at all. However it is pretty usual in the work of novices and many of my beginner students. It's because they don't really have a proper idea of exactly how much iron ground needs to be moved to effect a secure inlay which results in far too much excess metal around the inlay work.

 

The missing wire inlay close up image is helpful too. This smooth walled groove is simply wrong, early brass wire inlay was always set into a groove that was punched by a wedge shaped lining tool. This leaves a very characteristic notched edge to the groove. This actual ancient inlay technique has been for the most part long lost but the evidence of the technique is always clear. Here the maker has used a more common modern wire inlay approach of creating a groove and then undercutting or under-punching it to create a wedge shaped cavity to lock the wire in place.

 

And lastly, the metal surface of the seppa-dai area is far too plain and the punch marks around the nakago ana seem to confirm the even homogeneous structure of the mild steel plate it's made from.

[roger dundas]

I hope you long term collectors and commentators will allow me to make a remark, a comment on the above.

It's not always fun to have a discussion piece blown out of the water but for all that to have an in depth explanation to explain the whys and wherefores is just brilliant. That is both for the owner and all the others showing an interest.

I have said similar before but it is just so impressive to such as me.

 

Roger D

[vajo]

I hope you long term collectors and commentators will allow me to make a remark, a comment on the above.

It's not always fun to have a discussion piece blown out of the water but for all that to have an in depth explanation to explain the whys and wherefores is just brilliant. That is both for the owner and all the others showing an interest.

I have said similar before but it is just so impressive to such as me.

 

Roger D

Go on Facebook in the Tosogu discussion there is other opinions. No it is not fake. Fords explaining is here wrong if he would be correct most of the onin/ heianjo that you will see in your life are fakes. These tsuba where not made by one person or in one studio. But it is consens here in the board that Ford never fails. So it is ok for me. Its like you are going to a doctor, one said you will die in a few days the other said there is nothing you will have a lucky and long life. Which opinion you will follow? 

 

Btw, i was asking for a school not about an opinion about if it is fake or not or you like it or not.

 

Thats my personal opinion and you can discuss against it but here i stand and not go back. I will not give any longer one of my pieces here in discussion. If it is postet, you will find it next day all over the internet and it is burnt. That is what will happen. 

[Kurikata]

Chris, don't worry, all tsuba shown on NMB since several weeks are either fakes or modern reproduction even if they are coming from well known European collections since one century at least

[Ford Hallam]

Just to reiterate and make somethings very, very clear.

 

Whenever I offer an opinion here, or privately, I am always careful to say that it is my opinion and by doing so I assume that it's understood that I am not claiming anything as absolute fact. The language I use is chosen carefully, as carefully as my observations of the objects I'm trying to evaluate. You'll read, "in my opinion, in my view, to my eyes, it seems to me," etc. this is all to make clear that I'm not an infallible oracle.     That's all I can offer, and I try to provide my reasoning as best I can.

 

To be blunt, Chris, I'm not impressed by angry, petulant 'knickers in a bunch' tantrums like yours. You implied, in your private complaint to me, that I had some sort of agenda with regard to your posts. Well perhaps you ought to stop a moment and consider why it is you think you know what you're doing buying random s**t off the internet.    

 

on Facebook in the Tosogu discussion there is other opinions. No it is not fake.

 

Well done, Chris. You found some opinions that back your desired opinion. To then state so boldly that therefore it is not a fake is not a safe bet though. 

 

Fords explaining is here wrong if he would be correct most of the onin/ heianjo that you will see in your life are fakes.

 

Just for the record, there are any number of Onin and Heianjo pieces on this forum that I've commented on that I saw no reason to condemn as fakes so your criticism of my reasoning is not very well thought out there all. I have one myself, i hope it's genuine.

 

If members of this forum appreciate my 40 years experience as a specialist craftsman in fine metalwork and this tradition in particular on top of the same time period of actually studying tosogu all over the world, and a fair bit of damn fine work in Japan,  then that's their prerogative. Time will tell, good ideas and opinions survive, those without good reason don't. A consensus without reasoning is worthless, imo     Opinions without reasoning are also pretty useless in terms of learning/teaching/sharing ideas.  It is up to the reader to evaluate my, and any other, opinions based, I would hope, on the reasoning offered. That's all there is to it.

 

It's often said that opinions are worth what you pay for them. I think this is wrong. Opinions are worth what they cost the person making them. My opinions, because they are often at odds with others, are often scrutinised more rigorously than the more conformist, 'gentle' views. It costs nothing to say what people want to hear, and there's rarely any risk to one's reputation. But I don't comment on things here to win approval or be seen as some sort of 'nice guy'. I comment, as honestly as I am able, because this subject matters to me, and I care enough to want to share my experience with others who would like to enjoy this field like me. If I see something here that I feel might mislead or distort people's ideas of good quality or worthwhile work to study or invest in then I will say something. Not to do so for fear of upsetting someone would be a disservice to every other person who sees it.

[vajo]

Looks to me to be a modern copy or deliberate fake. 

 

Thats what you said Ford. Modern copy or deliberate fake. Not more and not less.

 

Its a very old Onin Tsuba. Nothing to add more.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Got here a day late, & no sign of the tsuba....

[vajo]

Hi Ken, you can follow the discussion here:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1644002859176429/?multi_permalinks=2527940374116002&comment_id=2531616803748359&notif_id=1575970113630738&notif_t=feedback_reaction_generic

[Ken-Hawaii]

Interesting. Thanks, Chris.

[Brian]

Ah...that clarifies it a lot.
It is a Heianjo-Onin-Modern-Muromachi-Momoyama-SE Asian-Vietnamese-Japanese-Tsuba.
Glad Facebook is less confusing and more helpful

[vajo]

Ah...that clarifies it a lot.

It is a Heianjo-Onin-Modern-Muromachi-Momoyama-SE Asian-Vietnamese-Japanese-Tsuba.

Glad Facebook is less confusing and more helpful

Sorry Brian you dont read the discussion full. If you had read it, you would notice which person(s) came to the conclusion early Ounin.

Btw there are honorable and well educated members from the NMB here are the same meaning, but they don't want to write it here because of some reasons.

 

Thats my last two cents in this topic here. Have fun.