Jumanji Yari - Kunishige or Kunihiro

[Rollingthunder]

I recently purchased, then returned, a Jumanji Yari, that was sold at auction. The original listing had  a picture of the nakago and mei, but no maker. It was listed as having been made in the mid 17th century, early Edo period. A few days before auction, I went to auction house and took some pictures of Yari, nakago and mei. I reached out to some experts and their response, was that the maker was Yamashiro-no-Kami Fujiwara Kunishige, 5th generation Kunishige. 18th century, mid to late Edo period, 1781-1789. I felt that the Yari was incorrectly listed and returned it. I spoke with the auction house "expert" and they claim the Yari was made by Yamashiro-no-Kami Fujiwara no Kunihiro, and refused to accept what the other experts claimed. I found a Kunishige Yari for sale and the mei matched exactly the one I had. I presented this information to the "expert", and again they say it is wrong, the maker was Kunihiro. The item has been relisted, this time it says made by Yamashiro-no-Kami Fujiwara no Kunihiro. That is false and unethical. I am enclosing pictures of the Yari I purchased, and links to a site selling a Kunishige yari and the the auction site. What do you think?
Kunihiro or Kunishige?

http://sanmei.com/contents/en-us/p1931.html
 
https://live.clars.com/lots/view/1-2EQ8SQ/Japanese-jumonji-yari-17c
 
https://live.clars.com/lots/view/1-2I5CUE/Japanese-jumonji-yari-17c-signed-fujiwara-kunihiro

[Geraint]

Dear Carlos.

 

Quite clearly this is signed Kunishige, I am at a loss to explain why the auction house are sticking to their erroneous conclusion except to say that very few auctioneers are sufficiently educated with regard to Japanese items and rely on an "expert" who they call on from time to time.  If you bought it for 350 you did well but bear in mind that polishing these is not easy and getting someone to take on the task will be a little difficult.   However I would have been happy to have a jumonji yari by this smith and would have dismissed the description without worrying about it.

 

All the best

[Bugyotsuji]

Regardless of which generation (clearly Kunishigé) I would have kept it too. Unbelievably cheap too.

[Brian]

I would have kept it at $300 (plus buyers %..maybe 25%?) even if it was mumei. With pole, even in that condition it is a good deal. Just love the shape.

[Rollingthunder]

While the price I paid was relatively low, to polish this Yari would probably cost in the neighborhood of $2000.00-$3000.00. That Jumonji Yari for sale in the Sanmei link, is around $3000.00 and it's in much better condition. I could have kept it, but it was a matter of principle. The fact that the auction house "expert" refuses to concede they are wrong is shear arrogance. The 100 year difference between when it was really made and the maker, can add significantly to the value. To make matters more interesting, I have found no reference ANYWHERE that Kunihiro made Yari's. As far as I could find, Kunihiro ONLY made swords.

[Ken-Hawaii]

If you're buying on "value," then you probably made the right decision to return it.

[SAS]

I would have kept it for the price, but too late for that; I agree the listing is problematic. Surely the polishing of such a yari is a worthy task.

[Ken-Hawaii]

That's certainly true, Steve. I tried to find someone to polish mine, but gave up after a couple of years. Too many edges!

[Rollingthunder]

Now I'm facing a dilemma... Would it be out of line for me to contact the auction house management and relay my findings? As I said previously, the house "expert" is being very arrogant and refusing to acknowledge that they might be wrong. I'm sure that the auction house would not want something listed that was patently wrong in the description. There are issues with that; credibility and liability.

[SAS]

PM sent.

[Rollingthunder]

UPDATE: After speaking with the department head at the auction house, they've conceded that their "expert" was wrong. They are going to correct the listing as to both dates of manufacture and name of maker... KUNISHIGE not KUNIHIRO!

[Jean]

« To make matters more interesting, I have found no reference ANYWHERE that Kunihiro made Yari's. As far as I could find, Kunihiro ONLY made swords. »

 

Be very careful, one never knows. I have an example with a tanto of mine: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/19201-kantei-for-fun/

[Ken-Hawaii]

 

 

UPDATE: After speaking with the department head at the auction house, they've conceded that their "expert" was wrong.

Good job, Carlos! Wish more people would complain when they come across errors lke yours.

[SAS]

Here is hoping the auction house withdraws the yari from auction and resells it to the original bid winner at the same price he originally paid.

[Bugyotsuji]

Haha, yes, this story is more like Jumanji than Jumonji!

[Rollingthunder]

{Be very careful, one never knows. I have an example with a tanto of mine: http://www.militaria...kantei-for-fun/}

 

Please explain... I don't understand the point of your post. I mention that in my research I found no Kunihiro made jumonji yari. You mention a tanto that you own, yet how it ties in to my statement makes no sense. From your post, it appears you're trying to find the maker, with no success. If you mentioned that you had an example of a Kunihiro made jumonji yari, then your point is made. So how exactly does that tie in with my post?

[SAS]

I think Jean means that he has a papered tanto by a smith not known to have made tanto....apparently unicorns are occasionally sighted.

[Jean]

When I discovered this tanto, nobody was aware that this Yamato smith had made other blades than tachi and only 3 were listed. Nowhere in documentation it was mentioned otherwise.

It is not because it is not mentioned in any documentation that it has not been done...

[Rollingthunder]

I understand your point now... Duly noted. Thanks for your input.

[Jacques]

When I discovered this tanto, nobody was aware that this Yamato smith had made other blades than tachi and only 3 were listed. Nowhere in documentation it was mentioned otherwise.

 

It is not because it is not mentioned in any documentation that it has not been done...

 

 

I think that the successive Japanese dealers who sold this tanto were aware of that...