Looking for examples of late war NCO swords

[WilBru5]

Hello all I am researching something and would appreciate help from the members here. I am looking to see examples of the ito wrapped wood handled variation #4 described on pg 205 in swords of Imperial Japan by Jim Dawson.  Others know this as the "Late War", "last Ditch" NCO sword.  Or as described in the Ohmura study as "The maximum Last stage type".  It is also known here by Shamsy's description as "Pattern 8". 

In particular I would like to see good clear pictures of the tsuka and wooden saya,  And any arsenal/inspector stamps on the blade tsuba, fuchi, suspension ring mount, and chape/drag.

Here are my pictures( I already attached them on a previous post of related subject, but am reattaching them here for clearity )

 

[IJASWORDS]

One of my pattern 8. 

[vajo]

Mine late stage..

 

 

 

[WilBru5]

  On 12/5/2019 at 10:17 PM, IJASWORDS said:

One of my pattern 8. 

 

Thank you Neil.

Yours follows the pattern of stamps I thought it would.

[WilBru5]

  On 12/5/2019 at 10:46 PM, vajo said:

Mine late stage..

 

sugata_typ95_last_stage_small.jpgkissaki_3.jpgseki_stamp.jpg202817_tsuka_a_small.jpgblade3_detailed.jpg

 

Thank you Chris.

Yours very definitely is what Shamsy lists as a pattern 5

[vajo]

Yes Bruce, pattern 5. Ohmura says last stage. There is no fixed term. Its like the Type 3, Typ 0 or some say naval landing swords. I say Type 3. 

[paul griff]

Hello,

Nice photography there Chris...

Regards,

Paul...

[Shamsy]

  On 12/6/2019 at 5:55 PM, vajo said:

Its like the Type 3, Typ 0 or some say naval landing swords. I say Type 3.

From Nick (and I agree):

"I would strongly oppose calling the so-called Type 3 a Type 0, as there never was any intention to make it a type. If the difference from the type 98 had been more minor, the army would have officially designated it 九八式呂号軍刀, Type 98 Model B Sword, which was how other contingency specs were named, but the sword went a bit too far outside that category of established practice to apply that style of naming."

 

Bruce P gets it right, calling it the Rinji??? (something starting with R, can never remember). Type 3 and 0 are fantasy easily refuted by the army records in the Japanese National Archives.

 

Don't fall into the trappings of the collectors term, Bruce W. Read this: http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/deflating-another-myth-type-3-army-officer-s-sword-expanded-version-584796/

[IJASWORDS]

Ok, here's one for you, what do you call these then? There are 8 of these pattern know to exist in collections. I have 3. The consensus is they are very late war "last ditch" officer swords. Nearly all have Mantetsu blades. 

[Shamsy]

Rinji variations. Easy!

 

Seriously though, they're a variation of 98s, made most likely by the same producer/business /collective/shop etc. There's plenty of examples of very similar 98s like this (as in the 98s are all the same), including the incredibly crude 98s with Seki stickers. They all share the same features, but they're still just a 98 variant.

 

Whether or not these were ever officially designated is unclear. I've never seen it, except by collectors who like to group things and give them a name. Just like all 95s being essentially the same sword, grouped by characteristics.

 

Edit: maybe 98s should be broken into patterns like 95s, each pattern distinguished by grouping like swords. I could see that working.

[vajo]

Steve i agree with you but it is normal that things get different and popular names. Look like the different names in US or other Nato members Russian stuff and how they called the same thing. Some equipment has 3 or 4 different names. No one spoke out the correct term of the producer. It is nothing we must argue over. 

 

For Example: Russian project 885. In Russia Military it is called "Yasen". US called it "Granny". In Germany it is called "Esche". Correct Nato-name is Sewerodwinsk-class submarine. 

 

The popular name for a "new" Type 0 sword is Type 3 and some other called it naval landing sword. If you describe it as Type 0 without any picture i bet no one has a picture in mind. But when you say Naval Landing Sword 99% of the collectors know how it looks like.

[Shamsy]

Agreed,there are several ways to describe the sword that are all recognisable. My hope is merely to make the correct designation the one people eventually use, though I understand that the other designations are so ingrained that it may require a new generation of collectors.

[vajo]

It will be Steve. The term Type 0 will come but it needs time and education. I never used the term naval landing sword, because it is a stupid name. I will call it Type 0/ Type 3 for the future.

[Shamsy]

Rinji is probably the best one for now. The sword never received a 'Type' designation, and the 3 and 0 are based on assumed (and incorrect) dates. Hey, we'll all know what we mean, so whatever you want to call it, Chris. You'll have to excuse me when I try to convert new collectors to call them Rinji.

[dwmc]

  On 12/7/2019 at 11:12 AM, Shamsy said:

Rinji is probably the best one for now. The sword never received a 'Type' designation, and the 3 and 0 are based on assumed (and incorrect) dates. Hey, we'll all know what we mean, so whatever you want to call it, Chris. You'll have to excuse me when I try to convert new collectors to call them Rinji.

 

 

  On 12/7/2019 at 11:12 AM, Shamsy said:

Rinji is probably the best one for now. The sword never received a 'Type' designation, and the 3 and 0 are based on assumed (and incorrect) dates. Hey, we'll all know what we mean, so whatever you want to call it, Chris. You'll have to excuse me when I try to convert new collectors to call them Rinji.

 

No better place to start using a proper term than here on the NMB ( Rinji Seishiki ) !

[vajo]

Rinji Seishiki is a well name for it. It sounds very cool in my ears.

[BANGBANGSAN]

Rinji Seishiki (臨時制式-Temporary Type) or Type Rinji sounds ok.It dosen't matter people call it Rinji, Type 3 , Type 0,Type 44 or NLF sword,I knew what sword they are talking about.

Maybe Type 3 is not the correct name ,but is the most common name for that type of sword.I personally prefer to call it 三式  .

[Bruce Pennington]

Nick Komiya didn't like my use of just "Rinji" for short of Rinji Seishiki. I've forgotten his actual words, but he said it's like saying "Junk" when using the Rinji without the Seishiki! Ha! I just hate taking the time to type both words. I'm considering calling it the "RS" model; but then no one would know what I'm talking about.

[vajo]

Haha Bruce... 

 

The best thing not to talk only showing a picture 

[dwmc]

  On 12/7/2019 at 1:14 PM, BANGBANGSAN said:

Rinji Seishiki (臨時制式-Temporary Type) or Type Rinji sounds ok.It dosen't matter people call it Rinji, Type 3 , Type 0,Type 44 or NLF sword,I knew what sword they are talking about.

Maybe Type 3 is not the correct name ,but is the most common name for that type of sword.I personally prefer to call it 三式  .

 

It's all good, any one of the terms you mentioned most people will recognize and will surely continue indefinitely...

[Shamsy]

Rinji Seishiki it is! Though I'm afraid we've derailed the thread. Apologies.

[Kiipu]

  On 12/5/2019 at 10:17 PM, IJASWORDS said:

One of my pattern 8.

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In IJASwords post #2 above, on the fourth picture down from the top, is that a ヘ inspection mark or just an indentation and/or scratch in the wood grip?  I have marked the area with a red square in the picture below.

 

[Peter Bleed]

I am challenged by this entire thread. These ALL(!) look to me like individually produced "things" that were made by and for brain-washed folks who understood only the worst parts of their culture and patrimony. These were made in very small shops by guys with a few files and some recycled bar-stock for guys who drank the cool-aide. They are diverse because every decision involved in their production involved figuring out how to deal with the available scraps. These swords will NEVER be allowed into Japan because they are embarrassing.

Peter

[Kolekt-To]

  On 7/29/2021 at 9:29 PM, Peter Bleed said:

I am challenged by this entire thread. These ALL(!) look to me like individually produced "things" that were made by and for brain-washed folks who understood only the worst parts of their culture and patrimony. These were made in very small shops by guys with a few files and some recycled bar-stock for guys who drank the cool-aide. They are diverse because every decision involved in their production involved figuring out how to deal with the available scraps. These swords will NEVER be allowed into Japan because they are embarrassing.

Peter

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Good points Peter, but isn't interesting that they do, in fact, have at least some value with some collectors even if only from the perspective of "Historical" artifacts. They were made for Japanese Army officers during wartime, after all. Some find value in that fact alone.

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 7/29/2021 at 9:29 PM, Peter Bleed said:

I am challenged by this entire thread. These ALL(!) look to me like individually produced "things" that were made by and for brain-washed folks who understood only the worst parts of their culture and patrimony. These were made in very small shops by guys with a few files and some recycled bar-stock for guys who drank the cool-aide. They are diverse because every decision involved in their production involved figuring out how to deal with the available scraps. These swords will NEVER be allowed into Japan because they are embarrassing.

Peter

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Got a burr under your bonnet Peter? Your whole post is odd.  I get cranky sometimes when things are getting to me at home.  Need to talk?

[Kolekt-To]

  On 12/5/2019 at 10:46 PM, vajo said:

Mine late stage..

 

 

 

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Best photos of a "Pineapple sword" I've ever seen!

[PNSSHOGUN]

Those crude last ditch NCO make the 'pineapple' version NCO look like a Gensui-To.

[Bruce Pennington]

They were certainly rushed.  My late-95 doesn't have a bohi (takes time to make) and you can feel, as you slide an oiling cloth or paper towel along the blade, 3 stages of tapering in the blade body- widest, middle, and thinnest.  There is a noticeable "line" for lack of words, where the tapering shifts.  You can't see it, but I can feel it.  Yet it's a solid weapon, heavier than the early 95s and a good looking blade.

[robinalexander]

Agree Bruce, but I have also felt 'the wobbles' in far superior blades...or, at least I did, when I had four fingers 😂

Rob

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 7/31/2021 at 4:19 AM, robinalexander said:

when I had four fingers

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That sounds like a story!  Want to fill us in?