Type 95 NCO Swords with Hamon?

[16k]

  On 12/4/2019 at 2:28 PM, vajo said:

Bruce when you look on a cooper handled NCO you will see that this is not like the point 9. description. I think you must judge every blade. 

I see so many different looking NCO blades. I will show a cooper handle balde and a last stage tpye95 NCO.

 

blades_edge_nco.jpg

 

Bruce, John, Neil, Shamsy please look on your copper nco and search for the temper line. I see under a good light a "real" temper (I'm not sure if that could be done with etching). On the last stage typ 95 i also see a temper and a black shadow above this line.

 

Damn, I’d like to get my hand onto one of those copper handles!

[IJASWORDS]

I have what I think is a pretty good copper handle. Can't see any temper line unfortunately. 

[16k]

I was looking at my regular 2nd pattern NCO sword and for a moment, thought I saw something, but I think it has more to do with a shadow created by the niku of the blade near the ha that reflects the light differently.

 

Still, Chris’ copper handle clearly shows a Hamon, so I wonder if that could have been an extra option offered for the early swords.

[vajo]

I see the hamon clearly on your sword Neil.

 

 

I go only down with gama, not more. There are some scratches, but it has a hamon too.

[Shamsy]

Polished Iijima:

Hamon of this sword is Sugu-ba

Jihada is Ko-Itame-Hada

 

You are correct, Chris. Some NCO have hamon.

[vajo]

Thanks a lot Steve for showing!

 

This is not from etching its real.

 

This is some exciting...

[vajo]

I found another example:

 

Look here.

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Steve your sword appears to be one of the "Zohei-To" used for Type 94 during the 30's.

[Shamsy]

  On 12/4/2019 at 11:49 PM, PNSSHOGUN said:

Steve your sword appears to be one of the "Zohei-To" used for Type 94 during the 30's.

It's just a standard Iijima arsenal 95 in the usual configuration. Nothing at all special about the sword, other than the fact it's had a basic polish.

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 12/4/2019 at 10:07 PM, Shamsy said:

Polished Iijima:

Hamon of this sword is Sugu-ba

Jihada is Ko-Itame-Hada

You are correct, Chris. Some NCO have hamon.

Steve, you're blowing my mind!!! Someone paid to have a Type 95 blade polished?!

 

I had always assumed they had hardened the cutting edge. Who would make a sword without a hardened edge, right? But this clearly shows it! Wow!

 

Now on that other one, is it a zohei-to? And WHAT are those holes on the mune? and what is that copper on the blade with a kanji????

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Chris,

 

Here's a shot of my copper. I wasn't sure if what I was seeing was hamon or a effect of sharpenning.

 

[Shamsy]

The holes and copper bits, Bruce, are just the tips of the stand caught in the photo. They look terrible though, like snipped bits of blade.

 

I don't think it's an amazing polish either mate, probably an apprentice in Japan or maybe an experienced but untrained Japanese dealer. It is really nice to see what a 95 may look like though.

 

I can't quite figure it out from what you've written, but I'll just add that both pictures I posted are the same sword. It's a complete, matched Iijima in reasonable condition.

[Bruce Pennington]

Oh, I see now! The serial number is just blocked/blacked out by shadows in the first photo.

 

Sooooo why the odd nakago jiri and 3rd hole?

[Shamsy]

Now that sir, is a good question. Since I never take them apart, I don't have much to compare with.

[Alex Genikov]

Thank you Dave a wealth of info!

By the way a modern Japanese swordsmiths extensively using machines nowadays.

Witnessed myself at ones famous swordsmith workshop near Tokyo, amazing.

And this live as to what you pointed early- a military swords been made during the war to a purpose,

not for the future collectors or admirers so was the medieval swords of the past as well.

I am pity much sure, if would given a chance, medieval samurai would give a lot for a good WWII sword!

[IJASWORDS]

Chris, I cleaned '95, looked under LED light, and YES, Hamon is there, thanks. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

The early Arsenal blades performed well in exhibition and other testing in terms of cutting performance and durability. I will have to dig it up but one of the officer Zohei-To won either an award or was well placed in a large Army sword competition.

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 12/5/2019 at 12:53 AM, Shamsy said:

Now that sir, is a good question. Since I never take them apart, I don't have much to compare with.

Here are some of mine.

 

[vajo]

I think we can now write that the information Type95 had no hamon, is false.

They had one. ????

I think many collectors of NCO swords will be happy and they look now deeper on their blades.

@Bruce i see the hamon on your blade too.

 

there is a lot of oil on it so i must take 3 filters to bring it out. 

 

now you see it better on your picture.

 

A good one.

[Shamsy]

You'll find that a lot of the information in the books regarding 95s is a little off the mark. The fact that there is so much more to these swords that isn't recorded anywhere means there's always more for people to learn. We also seem to find new information every time we delve into the subject, is why I enjoy collecting them so much.

[16k]

A lot of information about ALL WW2 swords is off the mark!

 

I’m only recently here. Before that, I had absolutely 0 interest in those swords. All I’d read about them made them feel like very inferior items.

 

I’ve loved so much about them in so little time since I’m here that my love for keeps increasing and I consider them as important as their revered ancestors. I can never thank enough all the great people of this forum for opening my eyes and my mind on such a neglected and derided part of sword history. You, gentlemen have my respect!

 

As for my NCO, I did as Neil suggested and put it under LED light, and yes, it’s faint but it’s there!

[BANGBANGSAN]

looks like most of NCO sword should have straight hamon when out of factory.But as these been used more than the officer sword,hamon worn out quickly,not many NCO's polish their sword I assume.造兵刀 has straight hamon for sure,Maybe Type 32 has straight hamon as well?

[16k]

Very impressive. I’d always thought 95s were through tempered...

[vajo]

Great pictures Trystan! Thanks for showing.

[16k]

Worth re-reading with those new info in perspective...

 

http://ohmura-study.net/791.html

[vajo]

This from Ohmura looks like polished too.

 

[16k]

Yes, that’s why I said the age took on a new light under the information of this thread.

 

However, Ohmura says a little further down that from pattern 2 onward (at least that’s what I think I understand from the poor translation!) that the blades were oil tempered and without Hamon (so through tempered). So I guess that unless he is wrong, my seeing the shadow of a Hamon is probably wishful thinking.

[Bruce Pennington]

An interesting point made in a letter from a WWII polisher: NCO blades were "tempered by air, not by water".

 

I'm not a metals buy, but I suspect that this means the edges really weren't tempered at all right?

 

Letter provided by Neil (IJASWORDS), found in a JSSUS newsletter.

[Dave R]

 Tempering is a process that follows hardening. "Tempering is most often performed on steel that has been heated above its upper critical (A₃) temperature and then quickly cooled, in a process called quenching, using methods such as immersing the hot steel in water, oil, or forced-air. The quenched-steel, being placed in or very near its hardest possible state, is then tempered to incrementally decrease the hardness to a point more suitable for the desired application. "

 

Type 95's were an industrial product, so I would not be surprised if they were made using the latest technology of the 1930s/40s. Original Wiki article here. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempering_(metallurgy)

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 8/2/2020 at 12:07 PM, Dave R said:

Tempering is a process that follows hardening. "Tempering is most often performed on steel that has been heated above its upper critical (A₃) temperature and then quickly cooled, in a process called quenching, using methods such as immersing the hot steel in water, oil, or forced-air. The quenched-steel, being placed in or very near its hardest possible state, is then tempered to incrementally decrease the hardness to a point more suitable for the desired application. "

 

Type 95's were an industrial product, so I would not be surprised if they were made using the latest technology of the 1930s/40s. Original Wiki article here. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempering_(metallurgy)

Dang, you guys keep trying to make me learn stuff!

 

So, the 95 blade is as hard as it can get, then tempered (by air) to increase flexability while retaining edge hardness, right? But likely no hamon, since no use of clay in the tempering.