Suishinshi Masahide Mei

[Tom Darling]

I get it, 1,2,3, 4,5,6, and 8 are gimei.  If there is another that is shoshin, have no reference. Great post. Peace.

 

 

Tom D.

[Jacques]

7 is likely gimei 

[Vermithrax16]

I stated in my post that #5 and #8 look shoshin, so all others are gimei. Others have posted the 2 are the same sword, I failed to notice that and just compared each one by one. Again, ready to be proven wrong, Masahide has so many examples would hate to see one come in at a shinsa if I were on the team.

[Tom Darling]

Hi Kathleen,

 

Great observation, number seven is positively different from all (gimei) others. Peace.

 

 

Tom D.

[Brian]

Going by the usual factors of stroke strength, confidence, fluidity etc etc...I still don't see how #2 can be shoshin. Granted I am sure I will be wrong...but even accounting for age and changes over time, that mei is really poorly cut.

[Jacques]

Going by the usual factors of stroke strength, confidence, fluidity etc etc...I still don't see how #2 can be shoshin. Granted I am sure I will be wrong...but even accounting for age and changes over time, that mei is really poorly cut.

 

 

I think you are right, i checked it more carefully and notice a detail i did'nt see before and which is a constant in masahide's mei

[Brian]

I think you are right, i checked it more carefully and notice a detail i did'nt see before and which is a constant in masahide's mei

A certain stroke/s direction?

[Jacques]

A certain stroke/s direction?

 

Yes and there is another one but the picture is distorded ans it's not easily visible.

[Tom Darling]

There is only one shoshin example in the group of eight. Peace.

 

Tom D.

[Ian B3HR2UH]

A good exercise thanks Ed . I agree 5 and 8 are the same sword and think that this is the only genuine one in the group . Number one is a possibility but I suspect its gimei

Ian brooks

[Ed]

Ok guys, looks as though this thread has run it's course.

 

First I would like to say thank you to everyone who participated. 

 

The point of this thread was to see if everyone had as much trouble as I do distinguishing shoshin from gimei when it comes to this smith.  Reminds me of researching the Tadayoshi school.  

 

The fact that there were three generations which used this mei, combined with the looong career of the Shodai makes this a bit of a nightmare.  He began using this mei along with variants in 1774.  He began using his koku'in seal in 1806. In 1818 he gave the Masahide name to his son and began signing his works Suishinshi Amahide.

 

As you can see he signed Suishinshi Masahide for 30+ years.

 

As for the examples provided for this exercise, all are known shoshin examples with the exception being #7.  A few of you deemed #7 good, some bad.  Truth is, I do not know for certain as it has never been submitted to shinsa that I am aware of.  My guess leans towards gimei, but with all the variations I would not begin to say definitively either way. 

 

It is my opinion that only a trip to shinsa would give relatively accurate opinion. Sadly, the owner is not interested in sending it to shinsa.

 

BTW: 5 & 8 are the same sword.

 

Here are a few photos of the Tanto in the event you are interested in seeing it.

 

 

 

 

 

[Vermithrax16]

Ed, are you say all but #7 have passed shinsa? All are 1st gen Masahide, or are some other gens? I only did comps for 1st gen except the obvious 3rd gen example.

[Jacques]

I would like to see NBTHK origami of number 2 

[Ed]

Jeremiah, yes #3 is a Sandai example, the rest are papered by the NBTHK or come from legitimate web sites.

 

 

[Brian]

A very interesting exercise Ed, and thanks for putting it together. Surprising result to me, I still cannot see how #2 could be shoshin, but I guess the work was textbook.
Now we need to post about 8 gimei examples and see how they compare

[Ed]

Tom, do you have a photo of the reference piece you used to come to your conclusion that #7 is shoshin and is it papered?  I would love to see it.

[Ed]

Brian, I figure you guys had had enough, but I do have additional examples.

Maybe good, maybe not 

 

 

[Jacques]

Number 2 is pictured in Fujishiro Shinto hen  page 340 it was done when masahide was 36 years old.... i missed it

[Brian]

He did seem to have a preference for where the mekugi ana went.
I remember Darcy's excellent article on placement, but can't remember which smith it dealt with. Have to go look it up again

[Fuuten]

Also, Smith's signing forgeries would outnumber the one real guy and thus would show even more variation than one person, so wouldn't it be more logically inclined to assume one out of eight is gimei than the otherway around?

 

Very cool thread Ed. Quality contribution!

[Tom Darling]

Ed,

 

You specifically asked which of the group is Suishinshi Masahide, and would provide the answer as you got them from reliable legitimate web sites?  My reference to the one I have is a wakizashi with kao dated 1818. I'll be happy to provide a picture asap.  Now which one ( #)  that you know for sure is Shodai. Thank you. Peace.

 

 

Tom D.

[Ed]

Hi Tom.

No worry, but actually, the question was for opinions on which of the examples, if any, you guys felt may have been gimei. 

 

“please look over the following examples and tell me which of them, if any, you think may be gimei.”  

 

But to answer your question, they are all shoshin and Shodai works* except #3 (Sandai) and possibly #7.  #7 may be shodai and shoshin, but as it has not been submitted to shinsa, therefore I cannot say for sure.  I think #7, is close enough to gamble on shinsa, however if I have to err on a name like this I would have to err on the side of safety.  That is why I stated I leaned towards gimei.

 

I would still like to see your example if it closely matches #7 and is papered.

 

*Keep in mind that there are a couple of the examples on which I was unable to get copies of the papers.  Some of the Japanese sites will state, “NBTHK Hozon”, or “NBTHK Tokubetsu Hozon”, however they do not provide photos of the papers.  Generally, they will indicate the generation as well, leaving a low probability of generational mistakes.

 

Examples:

Shodai: https://www.tsuruginoya.com/items/f00057.html

Nidai: https://www.tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/a00298.html

[Jussi Ekholm]

Very interesting thread Ed, and I am bit surprised about the result. Even though I don't know much about swords of this time I didn't think all were papered and legitimate (apart from 7 which I think might be better signature wise than some of the papered ones). Was a fun guessing and made me look at stuff I might skip on normally.

[Ed]

Jussi, 

Thank you for participating.  The results being so surprising is why I started this thread, to share how much variation can be seen in shoshin examples.

[Ganko]

Just think what the shinsa teams from Japan are up against when evaluating blades in the US,they only have a few minutes per blade to make a judgment.

[Ed Harbulak]

Remember that the blade must verify the mei, not the other way around. Judging signatures means you should compare blades made as closely together in time as possible since a signature often does change over time. 

[SAS]

Interesting, as we have often discussed the issue of signature change here; most have said they thought not, while i thought it likely, due to age, arthritis, etc.

[Vermithrax16]

I used Sesko's PDF meikan for the comps, I could break out the books and see more, but before I invest that kind of time I would ask Ed which paper each has. I have serious issues with a quite a few of them and would not like an outlier for my own personal collection.

[Tom Darling]

Hi Ed M,

 

I couldn't tell which of the other (2nd or 3rd) of two gen.are gimei.  I know that Kizu Yasu, John Yamoto, R. B. Caldwell and Dr. Compton were all in agreement that it is Shodai.

 

A shinsa was not necessary.  I will post a pic with the date in the near future. Great exercise in thought.  Peace.

 

 

Tom D.

 

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[Vermithrax16]

Tom D.

 

Post a pic or what are you doing? The folks are well respected that you named, but they are not a shinsa team. 

 

Thread got more interesting.