Another Tsuba Kantei

[Eric H]

Another Tsuba Kantei

 

Eric

[docliss]

My eyes are dim, I cannot see .... Is that vertical nanako on the plate?

 

Thank you, John L.

[Eric H]

Detail

[Eric H]

better detail

[Bungo]

very nice, the Mantis Dude will be after you.......

p.s. I'll do the NTHK thingie......... Kyo-Kinko. 78 points !!

milt

[Curran]

Wow. Very nice.

 

Yoshioka?

No, maybe I should retract that answer and think on the nanako a bit. I'm not sure what other clues to to consider. Any clues on the actual insects themselves. The photos are good.

 

Curran

[Guido]

The motif looks kind of Mino'ish, but the fine Nanako that goes around the Mimi doesn't fit.

 

I'm with Curran on Yoshioka Inaba no Suke.

[Bungo]

forgive my ignorance but why Yoshioka Inaba no Suke specifically?

 

I thought above mentioned style is more like Kaga-ish inlay as that famous example of the peacock tsuba ( Or that example is more an exception than the rule , ) ?

p.s. I place my bet on ko-Goto

milt

[nagamaki - Franco]

Greetings all,

 

wonderful nanako and bug work, thanks for sharing.

 

Milt, be careful with choosing Ko Goto for tsuba kantei, as it wasn't until the 5th generation Tokujou who began making tsuba in the Goto Shirobei line.

While still a novice when it comes to tsuba study, my bet here would be somewhere down the Yokoya school path based on subject matter, material, and style. Looking forward to reading more discussion.

[docliss]

This is a very interesting kantei on a beautiful tsuba. I am intrigued by the answers of Guido and Curran, and would like to hear their rationale for these. The Yoshioka school, working from the mid C17 until the mid C19, certainly had Yokoya connections, since the fourth master was a pupil of Yokoya SÅyo. But I cannot, personally, see any Yokoya influence in Eric’s tsuba. And Yoshioka work is supposed to follow the classical GotÅ style — something that cannot be said of the kantei tsuba.

 

The vertical nanako makes one think of KÅ-Kinko work, but it demonstrates none of the flattening that one associates with this period, and is surely nothing like such an age. Examples of Yoshioka work are very difficult to find, but there is one — D 1788 — on p.310 of the Bauer Catalogue, and the high relief incrustation thereon does, indeed, bear some similarities to that on Eric’s tsuba.

 

More, please ....

 

John L.

[Guido]

My rationale? I really couldn't call it that, and since I got into Tsuba only recently, I kind of work from the belly yet, i.e. going with the memory I have of Tsuba studied and seen in books, "supported" by the following observation:

The Tsuba doesn't look Ko-Kinkô at all to me, the condition is very good, and I think it is middle to late Edo period work. The Gotô line is of course known for their fine Nanako work in Shakudô, but this Tsuba departs from their usual workmanship (at least the stuff I've seen), especially the rim and the Nanako that go around it, something that reminds me of Yoshioka pieces I looked at. OTOH, it still looks "formal" enough to be Iebori, so if I exclude Gotô there's not much left.

 

Well, it probably turns out to be Machibori, and I made a very strong point in showing my ignorance.

[Guido]

I just found a late Mino Tsuba here - looks like I was wrong about the Mimi; but I'm too stubborn to change my bid now.

[Curran]

Late Edo, fine nanako, insect theme, unsigned work.... often points towards Yoshioka very quickly. I've tried to upload an example of NBTHK Yoshioka tsuba that I owned a while back.

 

As Guido said, I often go to a conclusion from the "gut", letting experience take me to conclusion quickly. Then sort of backtest it and see if it works.

In this case I retracted my Yoshioka comment after a very short period of mental backtesting.

 

I'd need agree with Guido that I don't think it is Goto. I'm not sure it is Yoshioka, because they tend to do their insects in gold and yet I don't think of their carving as crisp as this. However, the eyes of the insects are a bit simplistic. For whatever reason, I believe the Yoshioka could render eyes a bit better than this.

 

I have and still own a beautiful late Edo tsuba with Shi-shi, fine nanako, and beautiful rose gold flowers. It is of similar shape to this one, though larger. Absolutely beautiful work that had several small things about it keeping it from falling into any one major school. People were quick to say Goto, but the NBTHK gave it to Kyo-Kinko- which was a major "cop-out" answer. I am hoping that this tsuba hasn't suffered the similar Kyo-kinko grabbag attribution.

 

One thing of note, the Ichiryu Tomoyoshi (or is it Tomotoshi.. mental block here) could leave their ironwork and sometimes do beautiful nanako tsuba like this with fine small carving, but they were always signed and I haven't run across an insect one yet.

[docliss]

Curran in very dismissive of KyÅ-KinkÅ as an attribution, labelling it as a ‘cop-out’ and as a ‘rag-bag attibution’; I seem to recall a previous occassion when I rebuked another member for similarly dismissing ShÅami as an attribution. But if you have a tsuba without the defining characteristics of a recognised school, and resembling KÅ-KinkÅ work but without the age, what do you then label it, if not KyÅ-KinkÅ?

 

I am going for a KyÅ-KinkÅ attribution - and without apologies!

 

John L.

[Bungo]

yeah, should have stuck to my original bid of Kyo-kinko 78 pointers !!............. but I decided to go fancy

 

milt

[Curran]

Dear John,

 

It is my feeling the NBTHK has gotten inundated with shinsa items the past few years and gotten sloppy on the Hozon level.

 

I've seen too many unsigned tsuba with papers to "Higo" (just Higo), "Shoami", or "Kyo-Kinko" when there is much more to them. If they go to Tokubetsu Hozon shinsa, the better ones get a more specific attribution- sometimes barely in the same ballpark as the Hozon papers. When it goes from "Shoami" as Hozon to "Kanayama" as Toku Hozon at a second shinsa... c'mon?

 

A shinas judge said to me that, "(you) must ask yourself how much classification some tsuba deserve." Even just accepting the broader implications of that statement as fact, can we not infer it encourages a sort of shinsa overly quick triage survery which might miss the finer details to be seen in some tsuba when there are so many at a shinsa? While I can understand the logic of experts asking to be paid for the $500 Tokubetsu Hozon answer on top of the $175 answer for Hozon, I myself will say many tsuba don't warrant such expense. Between this and the shinsa judge opinion of Hozon, I think that we sometimes see a modern cheapening out of Hozon papers as a "lighter opinion".

 

Again, let me stress this is my feeling on the matter. I'd like to attribute this kantei tsuba as something more than Kyo-Kinko, but if it has only Hozon papers from some time in the past few years, then I'm currently of the opinion the papers will say "Kyo-Kinko".

____________________________________________________

 

This feeling is directed primarily at the NBTHK, but then there are calls like Milt's tsuba where I respect the Yoshikawa NTHK fittings judges and wish they would explain why they gave his to "Kyo-kinko". I still think that one is something else. Maybe you (Milt) should post that one in a seperate thread.

[Bungo]

" This feeling is directed primarily at the NBTHK, but then there are calls like Milt's tsuba where I respect the Yoshikawa NTHK fittings judges and wish they would explain why they gave his to "Kyo-kinko". I still think that one is something else. Maybe you (Milt) should post that one in a seperate thread. "

.........................

which one ?

 

I can take the dragon fish one as Kyo-Kinko but the dragon ascending Mt. Fuji REALLY bugs me, I mean an almost identical example ( signed ) was in Dr. Compton's catalog #1 and they can't at least attribute to that school ?

I heard the " usual " excuse....the quality is not there, to that I say bulls%$#, the dragon is identical scales by scales, both shakudo of high quality .............I was tempted to show them the catalog but then........don't even get me started !!

 

milt

[Eric H]

As kind of pre-answer I post the Kanteisho - maybe some want to try to translate it. The detailed translation will follow tomorrow.

 

Eric

[Guido]

Mr. Shibata's script is really hard to read - is that "Kaga"?

[Eric H]

Shibata Mitsuo kanteisho : Kaga Akimushi

 

tsuba mumei kaga akimushi no zu

shakudo nanako zi mokkogata takabori zogan ryo hitsu

jidai edo chuki

showa gojunen rokugatsu junichi

[Guido]

Eric, no further comments and explanations? :?

 

I do respect Mr. Shibata's Kanteishô in regard to swords, but know personally of two of his Tsuba attributions that got different papers from the NBTHK which made much more sense. And I'm not saying this because I'm behaving like a sore looser in this Kantei.

[Eric H]

Guido, a sore loser ? certainly not ! All who participate in a Kantei deserve in the first instance respect. I'm neither an "expert" on swords nor on fittings, therefore I have nothing to add on, perhaps only that the showed Tsuba for Katana makes part of Daisho-Tsuba's, both are mounted on their respective Koshirae's. I'm far away to disbelieve the expertise of the late Mr. Shibata, and BTW who is infallible ? The facts are clear, backwards the pics and finally the outcome.

 

But it would be interesting to hear the opinions of the other participants.

 

Eric