Ishiguro Masatsune - 2nd generation?

[Kurikata]

I purchased this tsuba signed Ishiguro Mastsune tsukuru (石黒政常 造) and with a date of 1830 (Tenpō gannen (天保元年). As the first generation Masatsune died in 1828, I deducted he could be the second generation.Do you think the signature is legitimate and my conclusion is right?

 

Thank you

 

Bruno

[vajo]

I dont' know about the signature, but i like this tsuba very much. Congratulation to that tsuba. Lovely piece.

[CSM101]

My guess would be gimei.

 

 

Uwe G.

[Brian]

If we go by the work, and not by the mei itself...it has strong possibilities. Very nice work imho.

[Pete Klein]

Shoshin Ishiguro Masatsune:

 

 

From:  https://kougetsudo.info/tousougu/ishiguromasatsune/

[Ford Hallam]

As Pete has eloquently illustrated this tsuba is in no way connected to the Ishiguro studio.

 

This is a good example of generic early Meiji period work made to 'flatter to deceive' the uneducated eyes of foreign visitors and curio buyers.

 

As a clue to spotting this sort of 'instant' work have a more careful look at the leaves, branch and tree bark. See how the carving and punched texture is pretty much the bare minimum needed to create a basic form and cover it with some sort of suggestive texture. There's no really care or consideration in evidence, under closer examination it leaves one feeling almost cheated. As though they simply had to knock out the picture as efficiently as possible. It's bit like those paintings you see at famous tourist spots, you might buy one while caught up in the thrall of the place, or the excitement of being there with someone special, but when you get home....a more sober viewing leaves you feeling a bit deflated....about the painting, not the 'special person', I hope.

 

p.s. Thinly gilded details on a big name piece should always ring noisy alarm bells, it's almost always a sign that the work is, quite literarily, only superficial.

[SAS]

I do like the texture on the tree, though.

[mareo1912]

I'd jump in on the gimei position as with the previously mentioned points. Adding to Uwe on the signature site of argumentation, the signature looks nothing like any reference I found for Masatsune II.

[CSM101]

It´s a piece that comes from a serious collector. But here is another one. A little bit blurred. Sorry!

 

 

Uwe G.

[DirkO]

Did a quick comparison with entries in the book 'The Ishiguro School of Japanese Sword Fittings Artists' - 2016
The Masatsune II mei are quite different (last one is Moritsune, which was an early mei for Masatsune II while 1st generation was still working)

 

[Kurikata]

Thank you all of you for your interest on this tsuba. Obviously I am desepointed by Ford's comments as many of us would be, I presume. I will continue anyway to keep on being a tourist in this universe. I definitively like this tsuba and especially the two little monkeys which are trembling with fear.

[Brian]

I think it's a beauty and would love to own it. Sometimes not having that refined-eye can be a blessing. We get to enjoy things a bit more without reality kicking in  
 

[Ford Hallam]

Ok then, time for a little comparative art study I see    It's a good thing I've got time on my hands and I care 

 

Here we have another monkey by comparison. A relatively unknown artist, but clearly decent enough.  Nara school, Hata Nobuyoshi 1807-1878

Nothing exceptional about the ape, but just compare the more convincing treatment of the fur, AND the character we can clearly see in the creatures face. This fellow is 'alive' with personality whereas the one on the OP tsuba is pretty basic in terms of expression.

[Ford Hallam]

A slightly more refined ape, this time by Hitotsuyanagi Tomonaga, 1831-1889. Again, not a 'premier division' artist but note the elegant texture of the fur and contrast this with the almost careless and evidently bare minimum effect on the op tsuba. And again, the face is quite characterful.

 

 

 

[Brian]

Ford, just an aside...in that last tsuba you posted (gorgeous!) what is the theme and what is he playing with? Some sort of spectacles? Really charming theme.
Also, is it my imagination or are there some kanji hidden in his kimono?

[Ford Hallam]

and now an eagle. I'm deliberately choosing artists who are good but not really big names to simply try and show what decent work OUGHT to look like.

 

Compare the flow of lines and feeling of powerful volume and dynamism in this bird with the rather flat and stiff creature in the OP.  A careful comparison of the details of the feather patterns and overall layout, and how that adds to the structure of the eagle and the feelings of fluid power as well as the varieties of 'texture' in the way different types of feathers on its body are depicted, the contrasts there are rich with variety. 

 

Mito School, Ichijosai Hironaga, late 19th cent.

 

 

[ROKUJURO]

This thread is a lecture and lesson on how to see things.....

Thanks, Ford!

[Ford Hallam]

This one is really very generic eagle but I wanted to show the leaves and tree treatment.

 

Mito school again, Ryûryûken Tomokatsu, late 19th cent.

 

 

The leaves might at first glance look similar to the OP tsuba but if we look more closely we can see that while they are seemingly quite simple they are in fact quite carefully sculpted. Notice how the shapes sit on the plate quite distinctly in some places, as though very separate,  and where in others the edges are much less hard or sharply defined, this technique breaks down the surface plane visually and develops a sense of depth.

 

The tree branch is interesting in that it too is very simplified but in a very considered way. It's very stylised, as any chiselled metal image of a tree must be, but this abbreviated form never the less still expresses well the essential feeling of a tree branch, with minimal marks and shapes. It's brief in physical form but in no way short in terms of effect. To my eyes, while it's obviously a very different style to the OP tsuba approach, it is a far more interesting and pleasing thing to contemplate. I think that makes it better art.

 

Anyway, I hope that what I've tried to point to is of some interest and maybe even provides some grounds for comparison and evaluation.

 

now I need a nap,

 

cheers

 

Ford

[Ford Hallam]

Brian, the ape is studying a netsuke and inro through specs, see how his eyes are enlarged as though magnified. Clever huh? . It's a bit of satire perhaps, a monkey playing the scholar/art aesthete.

 

I cant see kanji myself.

 

It's a theme we see in a few formats, woodblock prints, netsuke, bronzes etc, at this time. But there's always been a love of creatures shown behaving like humans in Japanese art so nothing really new in that.

[mareo1912]

Thanks Ford for posting my new favourite Tsuba! (Can relate to the Ape when reading a new scientific publication)

[Tanto54]

To further elaborate on Ford’s explanation of the Monkey Tsuba theme, notice that the netsuke (the small sculpture in the Monkey’s hands) is actually a carving of a monkey itself.  This is a famous theme in Japanese art - an anthropomorphized Monkey studying a small carving of a monkey (e.g., a netsuke).  Most of the literature says that the theme is poking fun at obsessive collectors (like us….)  Kinsey says in his article “Monkey’s Galore!” that the first depiction of this theme may have been in a painting by Yamaguchi Soken in the 1700’s (see below).  The Monkey is usually in a Happi Coat with spectacles or a magnifying glass.  The netsuke and box shown in Figures 3 and 4 (below) are works of Unno Seiju Moritoshi (1834-1896) whose lineage traces back through the Mito branch to Goto Yujo (1440-1512), the founder of the Goto school of metal workers.

 

The Tsuba that Ford posted is even more interesting because it also incorporates a completely different theme - Monkey and Wasp.  The famous Price Collection has paintings with this theme by Mori Sosen, and the notes in the Collection Reference Catalogue say that “the theme of monkey and wasp is traditionally an auspicious one, deriving from a wordplay in which “wasp” is homophonous with “grant” and “monkey” with “lord.”  In other words, the combination of [a monkey grasping a wasp] symbolize the good fortune of being made a lord of a fief…. However, the picture has no meaning if the monkey simply watches [or ignores] the wasp; he must grasp it firmly in his fist for the theme to take hold…. Was [sosen] teasing someone who requested a picture of a monkey but did not know what such a picture meant?”  In other words, if the Monkey is reaching for, or grasping, the Wasp, it is a good symbolism meaning good luck or promotion.  However, if the Monkey is not reaching for, or grasping, the Wasp, it is an inauspicious symbolism meaning misfortune or wasted opportunity.

 

Looking at these two themes together on the Tsuba that Ford posted, I think that it may be poking fun at nihonto and tosogu collectors who may be more focused on studying their collections than getting ahead in life. 

 

 

The Tsuba that Ford Posted:

 

Yamaguchi Soken Painting:

 

Figure 3:

 

Figure 4:

 

Mori Sosen Painting:

 

[Brian]

George,
Thank you for taking the time to do that write-up and for sharing with us. Great info and very interesting. And of course to Ford, many thanks as always.

Btw, although my mind is likely playing tricks, this is the area I was thinking looked to contain kanji.

 

[Tanto54]

Dear Brian, I see what you mean - that really does look like Kanji!.  I asked my wife to take a look (Japanese and Shodo expert - kanji calligraphy).  While she agreed that it looked somewhat like kanji, she didn't think that it was.  So it's probably just bare tree branches from the design on the coat.

[Markus]

While we are on the topic, the Met too has a tsuba which falls into that category.

 

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/28616

 

 

 

[Kurikata]

Ok Ford, fare enough. My concern is about having money to get a "tope "class" tsuba. I fully understand that I have purchased an AUDI A5 (my current car) as I thought is was an Aston Martin DB11 ( the car of my dreams - please refer to pictures) .They look similar but they do not have the same engines   . Next time I'll try to earn enough money to get a real Ishiguro tsuba. Thank you for the lesson.

[Pete Klein]

Hmmm - good comparison as a Juyo Masatsune tsuba would be around the same price as an AM DB 11 and it will retain it's value far better to boot.  

[Ken-Hawaii]

This was quite a learning experience! 

 

It took me years to get my eye & brain coordinated on Nihonto, & I expect it will take at least as long for tosogu.

[djealas]

Compliments to Ford on the  Ichijosai Hironaga, late 19th cent! That is a spectacular work of art, beautifully executed water, and the expression on the faces of those critters are stark and malevolent. Love it.

[terminus]

I don't want to start another thread just for this question, but was wondering who is Kato Hideaki of the Ishiguro school? I see a few of his works in the MFA and he's attributed to the Ishiguro school. But I don't see him in any of the Ishiguro school genealogy. Is he the same person as Kato Teruaki? 


(The Japanese toso-kinko Schools

By Markus Sesko)

(example of Kato Hideaki work)

https://collections.mfa.org/objects/18837/kozuka-with-design-of-chidori-and-waves?ctx=977a04b1-f4e5-47d0-9d93-c9fc68cacf95&idx=57

 

[Gunome]

Probably the same person as the first kanji 英 could be read Hide or Teru