Type 32 "Otsu" Sword. Is it fake? Some help or info wanted

[MacTheWhopper]

My grandfather supposedly brought this sword home back from WWII, I say supposedly because part of me is concerned that sometime between the time he brought it back and it was given to me, that there could be some sort of foul play and I would like to see if i can get some info on it. So after reviewing the pictures here are my concerns

 

1. The serial number of the blade says 21498 and the stamping of the serial number doesn't quite the same as some of the other type 32's that I have seen online. On another site, Otsu's werent numbered that low. It says they around the 30k mark, I believe

 

2. The Sheath at the bottom doesnt seem to have the same configuration as other type 32s that I have seen

 

3. The arsenal markings are very lightly struck it looks like. Its very hard to make them out. The screw for the grip is on backwards (this of course could be reversed but thats why im concerned for foul play)

 

Im just wondering if someone got their hands on the one my grandfather had and switched it out with a reproduction or what. Some of the things above concern me. I looked at the ohmura study page and it didnt mention the serial numbers of the otsu swords but a different did. What do you guys think? This was the sword that got my started into sword collecting but after some research, IU have concerns.

[ChrisW]

I can't speak for the individual piece necessarily, but its not uncommon for arsenal stuff to get mismatched. Its unlikely to be a fake as there's not a huge market for these particular blades; they're also mass-production pieces. They're fairly readily available still. I think Bruce might be able to speak more on these than anyone.

[Shamsy]

I collect 32s. Absolutely original, no doubt.

[MacTheWhopper]

Well that's good news. It's weird cause online it seemed that the otsu's had a higher serial range but maybe that site was wrong on it

[MacTheWhopper]

The part where the blade meets the handle guard thing (gosh I have a lot to learn) has a leather piece on it and from what I've seen. Alot of them had a steel piece

[Shamsy]

The leather blade seppa or perhaps washer, is the original configuration for these swords. They are, in my opinion, preferable to the later replacement washers.

 

The serial number numbers for both swords vary from high to low. Don't put any concerns on that. Number rangers matter far more for 95s, which have documented ranges and allocation. It's the stamp style and patina you should focus on. There were many small variations.

 

The sword is entirely genuine. The fakes were never very good.

[MacTheWhopper]

That's great news. How about the Scabbard? Most of them seems to have a bit of a different Scabbard than the one I have. Is it maybe a Scabbard for a different sword or just a different variation?

[Bruce Pennington]

Dawson shows there were 2 styles of the scabbard throat on the 32, and yours is one of them.

 

My Otsu is "5814", so like Steve said, both models ran numbers from probably 1 to the thousands.

 

Both my Ko and Otsu have the leather spacer.

 

[Austus]

Check and see if the numbers match. The scabbard should be numbered at the throat opening. If they match, end of story. 

Yours is missing the leather finger loop. Some of them were made without one. Look for a small hole in the D-guard and see if it's there or has been filled.

Don't get any oil on that leather seppa, or it will disintegrate. Ask me how I know.

[Shamsy]

The scabbard number to match the sword will be on the drag most likely.

[BANGBANGSAN]

Your Type 32乙 is  genuine 

[Austus]

Yes, Steve, you are correct about the number being on the drag. Sorry, I was remembering those NCO swords. Would still be interested to hear if they match.

 

Ever noticed the difference between the cutting edge of the ko and otsu? The ko has a zig-zag edge for cavalry use; and the otsu has a more expected straight edge, although a bit rough to improve slashing. The ko is point-heavy; whereas the otsu is much better balanced due to being shorter. Because the saya is brass lined, those blades are frequently super clean. But the steel is very soft, with no hamon. They were used for decades, so must have perforformed well enough.

[Bruce Pennington]

Austus,

Can you show us an example of what you mean by zigzag edge?

[Shamsy]

The 32s were still in use through WW2, so they had a long service run. I think the main reasons Nick outlined for their official replacement by 95s was the need for a two handed grip to improve the power of blows and slashing, particularly because of the heavy uniforms worn in Manchuria. There was a degree of symbolism and nationalistic pride at work too,though it was mostly practical considerations.

[Austus]

Well, Bruce, that was an interesting journey you sent me on. But embarrassing. No more working from memory for me!

I can't get good enough pictures to show it, but the edge of my first one alternates in places from the grinders or whatever they used to sharpen them. The edge on the second one is a bit cleaner. But it turns out I have 2 ko swords. Matching numbers, #75,788 and #61,903. There are differences between them; but I won't bore you. The drags are different, showing both examples.

[Shamsy]

The difference in edges may have been a result of the introduction of a sharpening guide given to soldiers and outlined in reasonable detail by Nick. Because of the lack of cutting power, I believe the army issued instructions regarding hand sharpening of blades, as the arsenal was not providing an adequate edge.

[lonely panet]

the type 32 is the longest serving, "from 1899 to 1945" most prolific made of all the "gunto family tree" with no true figure ever know with serial number over lapping.

I think I read in a book, that this sword never had a "cease of manufacture" order given  

 

mis-matched saya if correctly done will have the saya numbers struck off and re-stamped.

heaps of variations,  It was very easy to find neat examples with original leather finger loop for a good price compared to the over hyped type 95.

 

the tricky part if finding the tassel in good condition ahahahahha

[Austus]

Thanks, Steve, that makes plenty of sense. As for cutting power, I'd hate to fight with one of these.  Maybe from a running horse.

 

And Hamfish, Thanks for showing the booklet Steve mentioned. Very Cool.    I've yet to see that kind of tassel in person.

 

And Kenny... Beware.  Your new sword could spark a lifelong passion for Japanese swords.  But you'll have plenty of company.

[Dave R]

 Most 19thC military swords had the same problem when dealing with thick winter clothing. A friend of mine thinks the problem was a change in sharpening methods from file sharpening to stone sharpening, (NB not Japanese style stoning). File sharpening gives a "feather edge" possibly the zig-zag mentioned above, which is a good ripping edge, especially effective on cloth.

[Bruce Pennington]

Like this. When I got mine, I assumed the rough filing was a Bubba-job. But a thread came up where we discovered several in this condition and it as said to be done in the field.