Civilian Mounts

[vajo]

David your historical description of the wartime is right. But I'm interested in the civil employees army swords. And my timeline gets from 1933 the start of the politics Japanese nationalism to the last acting on different islands at january 1946. Some holdouts fight a long time over this date too.

 

Btw i would like really appriciate pictures of civil employees swords in the IJA. 

 

Btw a historic note. The Japanese war against the allies ended official on the 28 of April 1952. 

[Bruce Pennington]

Chris,

 

You won't find and "civil employees swords in the IJA". Gunzuko were authorized by reg to carry Type 98 gunto commensurate with their rank. The only way to know it was carried by Gunzuko is if it had the all brown tassel. Nick Komiya found the uniform reg change that designated the all brown tassel for the Gunzuko.

 

So civil swords, refitted in varying degrees, were carried by all services and all ranks.

 

Found here: http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/what-were-regulations-army-civilian-employees-carry-swords-701783/

[vajo]

Bruce that is not correct what kojima said.

There where a lot of ranks outside the military in use. They where civillian officers. 

 

(Udaiben / Sadaiben) daiben (大弁, „Oberstaatsverwaltungsdirektor“),

chūben (中弁, „Mittlerer Staatsverwaltungsdirektor“),

shōben (少弁, „Unterstaatsverwaltungsdirektor“) und

shōnagon (少納言, „Unterkabinettsrat“).

 

従一位 dajō daijin (Großkanzler)

正二位 sadaijin (Kanzler zur Linken), udaijin (Kanzler zur Rechten)

従二位

正三位 dainagon (Großer Kanzleramtsrat)

従三位   dazai no sotsu (Generalgouverneur von Tsukushi)

正四位上 nakatsukasa-kyō (Minister des Hofministeriums)

正四位下 Minister der anderen Ministerien des Daijō-kan

従四位上  konoe no chūjō (Vizekommandant der Leibgarde)

 

正五位下 sa-u-shōben, Vizeminister der anderen Ministerien des Daijō-kan

従五位上 taikoku no kami (Gouverneur einer Großprovinz)

従五位下 jōkoku no kami (Gouverneur einer Oberprovinz), jingi no taifu (Vizepräsident des Götteramtes), Kammerherrn, shōnagon, Amtsl

 

Emura the director of the Okoyama prison was not a military officer and carries a sword.

[Bruce Pennington]

Chris, you must have misunderstood me. What I was saying is that there was no “civilian sword” designated for the gunzoku. They wore Officer Type 98s and, before the uniform reg change, rank tassels commensurate with their equivalent rank.

[vajo]

Ah sorry. Thats the problem with my bad english. I hope you will forgive me.

 

So now there are swords which was worn by civilian employees that work in the IJA. Is this correct?

 

And these swords has a "uniformed" look. Such these Bamboo gras fittings or the cherry blossom fittings.

[Bruce Pennington]

They litterally had the same choices as regular IJA officers.

[IJASWORDS]

Here is an enlarged photo of what I believe is a civil employee and his sword. The indication that he is a civil employee is the small insignia above his right pocket. The service that he works for is (I believe) denoted by the color of the insignia. This one I was told is a veterinarian. Students of WW2 Japanese insignia may jump in and confirm this.

[PNSSHOGUN]

The rare cream and brown tassel as well. Now these irregular colour tassels are mentioned in reference books and other collector's legends and tales but I would like to see extant pictures or examples of each of them one day. Same goes for the Naval tassel with zigzag stitching.

Edited November 20, 2019 by PNSSHOGUN

[IJASWORDS]

Well spotted on the tassel John. I have never heard of the cream/blue variety. Any information you find would be appreciated. 

[IJASWORDS]

John, another potentially cream tassel , that looks like it is on a standard gunto. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

I made a mistake, cream & BROWN is the correct one. There was an example posted here not long ago on a fine early Shin Gunto. So far this is the only variant of the "irregular" colour tassels I have seen true examples of, there is another on Ohmuras site on a SMR koshirae sword.

[Bruce Pennington]

You can see some here: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/28631-railway-swords-stamps/?hl=%2Bcream+%2Btassel&do=findComment&comment=301647

 

And several here: http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/cream-brown-tassel-railway-police-743884/

They were for rail employees.

[Austus]

Hey, Neil, I recognize that badge over his pocket; because it got me in trouble a while back, mixing it up with the infamous "W"stamp.   On page 152 in Jim Dawson's book , it is said to be either an artillery officer (yellow badge) or a judge advocate (white badge). Your photo's badge looks pretty dark, though. 

[Bruce Pennington]

Cream tassel

 

Patches.

[IJASWORDS]

Interesting Bruce, thanks. The right side 5 down that is dark, and says veterinary service , could be the one in my black and white photo. As I said , I was told it was a veterinary officer/employee. Always willing to learn if I am misguided. 

Austus, I read that, but my photo is definitely not white or yellow.  Bruce's photo shows a range of darker colours . 

[IJASWORDS]

This is a mix of old blade, tsuba, and old wood saya, with Gunto tsuka, sarute and tassel in a leather combat cover . Blade is an Echizen Seiki 1684 (papered). 

[vajo]

Interesting Ashi on a regular saya. Saya is black Neil?

[IJASWORDS]

Chris, this is a photo of the same type of ashi . It slips over the black saya. 

[vajo]

Cool Neil. I will look for such a type of ashi for my koshirae restauration.

[Bruce Pennington]

Superior private with civil sword.

 

[Bruno]

  On 11/13/2019 at 8:55 AM, IJASWORDS said:

Bruce , thought I would pull another civilian out to photograph a bolted on ashi. This is on a 17th century blade, with old saya. Saya has provision for the Ko-gatana and Kogai accessories. It had a leather combat cover.

My take on this was a family sword, taken to war, and when the Japanese won, the sword would be taken home, the ashi removed, with no damage to the saya due to the leather gasket under the steel band. 

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Was it common or even allowed to wear kogatana with the katana for civilian under army contract? I have seen several civilian gunto monts but never really paid attention if they had or not the emplacement to put a kogatana.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 1/24/2022 at 1:28 PM, Bruno said:

Was it common or even allowed to wear kogatana with the katana for civilian under army contract?

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That's really cool, Bruno, thanks for posting it!  I've never seen a reg on what was allowed for the civil blades refitted for service.  The vast variety of combinations lends me to believe there wasn't a set standard, though.  Fuller's book shows some creative home-made fittings on various gunto, this would be a nice addition to his section!  A great many we see on the market still have the leather cover, so it is possible there were some with the slots, but simply covered up. 

[BANGBANGSAN]

  On 11/20/2019 at 9:13 PM, IJASWORDS said:

Here is an enlarged photo of what I believe is a civil employee and his sword. The indication that he is a civil employee is the small insignia above his right pocket. The service that he works for is (I believe) denoted by the color of the insignia. This one I was told is a veterinarian. Students of WW2 Japanese insignia may jump in and confirm this.

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Neil

I'm not an expert on the uniform. But seems 军属（Civilian work for the army）wearing different uniform and insignia?

 

[george trotter]

Hi Trystan,

Yes there is a lot of detail on Gunzoku we don't know.

I can say that my Japanese teacher (b.1936) told me that her father served in Rabaul (New Britain, PNG) as a Gunzoku officer (medical) and had a sword "with a blue ribbon", so that fits with Nick's info about ribbon colours for 'above civilian and NCO level' Gunzoku .

Interesting.