Worthy tsuba or cast repro?

[Tigerinbamboo]

Hi guys, I'm looking at buying this tsuba, but I have some concerns. The texture on the surface looks like bubbles and wrinkles, maybe from casting?

[Brian]

Kathleen,
Forum software will resize if the pic is too big. Try and cut that long image into shorter ones, and upload separately. We need larger pics.

[Tigerinbamboo]

Link to high resolution pics:

 

https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/v674703125/detail

[Guido]

This looks like a listing from one of the very active Yahoo!Auction Japan sellers. He mostly sells legit items, but also fakes; this seems to be one of the latter IMO.

[Steves87]

It's like it has been coated in something and the coating is wrinkling?

To my eyes it looks like the dot inlays are real.

[Tigerinbamboo]

Stephen, that's it exactly. The relief of Benzaiten and the dragon is beautiful, but the flat surfaces have wrinkles, like Saran wrap. The mei looks very sharply incised.

 

Guido, can you say what looks fake to you?

[vajo]

Looks like a very nice tsuba. Its legit.

[Brian]

  On 11/9/2019 at 1:19 PM, vajo said:

.... Its legit.

 Using just those pics, you are confident enough to make an absolute statement like that?

Hmmm....I would go with Guido's eyes most times, until proven otherwise.

[Steves87]

Inlaid enamel? The pupil?

[Pete Klein]

Sekijoken Taizan Motozane - Haynes 06004.0 - Wakayama III pgs 56 - 57, Shinsen Kinko Meikan pg. 217 & 444.  Scan is from SKM:

 

 

Pics:

 

 

Not cast, has been mounted, has some 'gunk' for lack of a better word and is most likely 'gimei'.

[Tigerinbamboo]

Gentlemen,thank you all for sharing your expertise. I'm leaning towards buying it, especially if the "gunk" is something removable. ????

[Ken-Hawaii]

We probably don't need to tell you that the wrong gunk remover can also damage the patina, right?

[Tigerinbamboo]

I know not to use a jewelry cleaning cloth, which will take off patina. I would start with some soap and water and soft brush, then isopropyl alcohol to remove the water. After that I would ask for help.

[raynor]

Maybe shibuichi? With definitively some wax or lacquer or God knows what on it to boot. Beyond my eyes to tell, but seems like a similar material as this one, is this also a fake?

 

[Tigerinbamboo]

I guess we should define "fake". If a piece is forged iron plate, with carving and inlays, but a gimei signature, that's not the same as a cast reproduction, or something painted black to look like shibuichi, no?

[Guido]

  On 11/9/2019 at 12:33 PM, Tigerinbamboo said:

Guido, can you say what looks fake to you?

 

This tsuba looks "off" to me in quite a few ways.

 

The worst is the patina, which is awful. According to the listing, the material is shibuchi, and it might well be. However, the attempt at patinating it properly obviously failed: it’s blotchy and lacks depth. Probably in order to hide this, it was lacquered, but that also was a fail, as the wrinkled lacquer shows: either applied with a dirty brush, or on a dirty surface, or reacting with the “patina” – or a combination of all the three.

 

In order to make it look more real, fake seppa wear / discoloration was attempted. At least the person who did this should have been clever enough to use a seppa as a template, but instead he rubbed off a line free-hand, and missed some parts.

 

Neither the signature nor the workmanship is up to the standards of this famous maker; attached is a genuine example, judge for yourself.

 

IMO the tsuba discussed here is a modern fake; the best case scenario is probably that it’s an antique fake with a botched attempt at “restoring” it. Anyhow, lacquer remover/stripper can be used without doing any harm to the patina (if it’s real/traditional, that is); got it straight from the horse’s mouth, and been there, done that. Putting clear lacquer on antique fittings is unfortunately a frequent occurrence in Japan … 

 

Lastly, going to Yahoo!Auctions one will see many tsuba that have this “funny” look to them – they never have papers, the seller doesn’t accept returns (like in this case), and they always sell for much less than what the (famous) artist usually goes for. Again, draw your own conclusion.

[TETSUGENDO]

The poor merchant never had a chance,  what a glowing endorsement!

 

-S-

[raynor]

Am I correct in assuming practical tsuba, as in made for mounting on a sword meant to be used would very rarely if at all have any of the decorations bleed into the seppa-dai?

[Guido]

  On 11/10/2019 at 5:33 AM, TETSUGENDO said:

The poor merchant never had a chance,  what a glowing endorsement!

 

Are you seriously suggesting that my comments had the sole purpose of harming this particular seller’s sale? Let me assure you that I have no horse in this race, I just answered the o/p’s question. It's up to her to make up her own mind. Also, it's not my habit to post any blah blah blah just to boost my post count.

 

But since you chimed in: what is *your* opinion? Do *you* endorse this tsuba, and why? Not suffering from an inflated ego, I have no problem to be corrected if wrong.

[Stephen]

Someone really really liked it.

 

ENDING AT 300,000 yen (US$2,847.00)!!!!

[Pete Klein]

https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/v674703125

[vajo]

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=de&sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fbuyee.jp%2Fitem%2Fyahoo%2Fauction%2Fv674703125%2Fdetail

 

In english 

[Brian]

That surface is a mess. You would have to factor in a full strip and repatination by Ford. Not cheap.

[rkg]

That's actually an interesting can of worms...

 

You've got modern mass produced pieces, modern one-off of old pieces, meiji/taisho period mass produced pieces (like that one ishiguro tsuba you see up all the time - if the artist did the run/was associated with the production, are they "fakes" or Giclées? :-)), Edo and earlier copies (both made to fool the buyer and "homage" pieces), and old pieces with an added mei...  Oh, and what what about designs that are "in the style" of old pieces made by later guys who actually signed the same way (think Noubie, Yamakichibei, etc)?

 

This particular piece/auction is so "yahoo Japan" these days.  Its pretty flashy, but it has issues, and... somebody paid a lot to look at it in hand :-/

 

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

 

  On 11/10/2019 at 12:22 AM, Tigerinbamboo said:

I guess we should define "fake". If a piece is forged iron plate, with carving and inlays, but a gimei signature, that's not the same as a cast reproduction, or something painted black to look like shibuichi, no?

[raynor]

Oh wow, that escalated quickly. And here I am skipping the line on slight buyers remorse for a tsuba I picked up in the $200 range to mount on my practise sword.

[TETSUGENDO]

What a jumble, many people saying more or less the same thing in different words.   Personally I think it's a traditionally made piece,  not a casting.   The fake part is that it is 'gimei' and not a period work by the artist.   Also, it does need  the attention of FH to put it in order.    My stated opinion is a composite one, I think it's obvious who's opinions I endorse.    BTW, the comparison of apples/oranges only clouds the facts.

 

-S-

[Tigerinbamboo]

Guido, thank you for the details! There are certainly many funky things about that tsuba. I had placed a low bid on because the design interested me, given the advice here, I wasn't willing to spend very much on it. Fortunately, I was WAY outbid, and count myself lucky.

[Tigerinbamboo]

Gentlemen, I thank all of you for weighing in on this discussion. It appears this was a traditionally made, but perhaps modern, tsuba with a fake signature and a lot of deceptive / poor surface treatments, if I can summarize the opinions? I feel like I am learning a lot (and boy is there a lot to learn!) by looking at both excellent and awful examples and reading the incredible advice here. Thank you all!!

[Brian]

Paging Dr Ford....Dr Ford, your opinion is needed in ward T.

I'd love a more definitive answer myself. I agree, we are seeing way more of this style/type of quandry on Yahoo JP lately.

[Ford Hallam]

Hey Brian....I was trying to stay out of this melee 

 

As much as I hate to contradict my esteemed friend, Guido, I have to say that to my eyes this is a genuinely produced late Edo work.

 

It seems, as has been noted, some sort of varnish has been applied that looks pretty messy but that I suspect could be relatively easily rectified.

 

I very much doubt that there are today craftspeople working in Japan, or anywhere else tbh, who could work in such a distinctly pre-modern style. By this I mean the sort of familiarity and fluidity that comes from years of apprenticeship training and provides a degree of certainty in the way things are shaped or the confidence of direct chiselling. In this regard the 'authenticity' of the clouds is completely convincing. This is so much more than simply skilful carving, it reveals a solid understanding of the underlying 'rules' of composition (absent in much modern work) and a regularity in the way the forms are carved. This comes from many many years of repetition, a bit like the writing of an accomplished calligrapher, it is almost impossible to fake that degree of familiarity. It is completely uncontrived.

 

I won't comment on the mei, even the best artists produced lesser work on occasion, but while this isn't absolutely the premium division I think it is never the less a pretty decent example of fine craftsmanship. As Guido points out though, no papers with a big name means that in Japan it's not being taken too seriously. I think this reflects contemporary emphasis on papers and reselling considerations rather than an objective appreciation of the work itself. My point being that if the mei is not of too great a concern it's a pretty decent tsuba for a serious collector of this particular genre.

 

And Omar/ Raynor

 

Your shibuichi tsuba is, imo, a perfectly legitimate late Edo work and not a bad piece at all.