Chinese and Japanese Dragons

[Stephen]

A thread to voice your opinion on the difference between the two and how their seen in art.

[Greg F]

The only difference between the two that I know of them is the number toes as most here probably know and the spiritual meanings. I think in China they represent luck and wisdom and in Japan its balance. For me if its Japanese I prefer it apart from maybe some foods.

 

Greg

[Ken-Hawaii]

Check out https://www.blackdrago.com/history/japvschin.htm for a decent summary on the differences. Seems to know his stuff.

[TETSUGENDO]

This is an excellent source Ken, I know it well, very informative.

 

-S-

[vajo]

I miss in that overview of dragons Germany. I think the famous "Lindwurm Fafnir" and the "Tatzelwurm" should not be missed.

 

List of german places where a dragon was killed.

 

Schöten by Apolda: Young knight Veit, from the Vitzthum, killed two Lindworms in the Swamps.

Desenberg by Warburg: Saga of the knight von Spiegel.

Drachenfels: Dragon hort of the Nibelungensage.

Furth in the forest: The city celebrates the Drachenstich.

Geldern: Cityfounder Wichard and Lupolt von Pont kills a Dragon, in the year 878.

Georgsinsel: Island in the river Iller by Kempten.

Schwarzenberg in the Erzgebirge: The Georgssage is part of the coat of arms.

Kürbitz in the Vogtland: A knight kills a Dragon who was marauding in the forest.

Syrau in the Vogtland: A farmer's son kills a Dragon, his sweetheart should be sacrificed.

Altschauerberg: Place of the famous dragonschanze (kite skier??)

 

German dragons have mostly only 2 legs and short wings. Sometimes they have 4 or 6 legs. 

 

Lindwurm Marienplatz in Munich

 

[Rivkin]

Afaik, in China unless you are talking about Taipin rebellion times when everything was in chaos, 5 toes is generally reserved for the Emperor, and even 4 toes is significant.

3 toes are non-government affiliated dragons.

In Japan 5 toes is normal.

 

Kirill R.

[TETSUGENDO]

I miss in that overview of dragons Germany. I think the famous "Lindwurm" and the "Tatzelwurm" should not be missed.

German and other European dragon lore are facinating Chris, glad you mentioned it.

[IanB]

Ignoring the toes - look at the tail. Lady dragons have a tail with a rounded end. Gentleman dragons quite naturally have a ken shaped sword attached.

Ian Bottomley

[Tanto54]

Wow, so much misinformation on this topic from some that I had considered experienced.  Want to know who you can trust? - look for yourself.  Search "tosogu dragon" images on the internet and compare the number of three toed dragons to those with more toes.  You'll find that about 99% of them have three toes.  

 

Of course there are exceptions, there alway are.  However, three toes is a very good rule of thumb that you can use as a point of reference.  If you'll take a few minutes to do the search and count for yourself, you'll know the truth.

 

For the record, I'm not saying that just because a dragon has more than three toes, it's not Japanese.  Instead, I'm simply stating what should be obvious to anyone who has seen much Japanese tosogu, their dragons usually have three toes, and if there are more than three toes, it should raise a red flag and be scrutinized closer.

 

P.S. Just to avoid confusion, see the front and back of one of the first tsuba that come up in this search.  Notice that it is a three toed dragon even though from one side it appears to have five toes on the back legs (it's really both back legs and you are seeing two toes from one leg and three toes from the other leg through the sukashi.

 

[Rivkin]

There is nothing wrong with Japanese dragons having three toes. But it can as easily have five, with no significance attached to it. A somewhat later drawing or template being copied, possibly Meiji - sure, one can suspect that. I obviously can be misinformed on this one. But I never encountered any mentioning of criminal liability for having more than 3 toes in Japan. 

Not so in China, though late examples can be ambiguous on this one as well.

Maybe I am overestimating the number of five toed dragons in Japanese art - sure. Experienced too many late paintings. Yes, in the very beginning the Asian dragons are three toed.

 

Kirill R.

[Tanto54]

OK, here is some empirical evidence of the proposition that the vast majority of the dragons on antique Japanese tosogu have 3 toes.  Why should you care?  Because it is a good rule of thumb or kantei point that you can use to help identify fake tosogu (once again, if the dragon has more than 3 toes, it does not mean for certain that it is fake but it should raise a red flag for closer scrutiny).  Also, look back at this and the related post to see which of our expert members got this right (something to think about when you take advice...)

 

Here's the result of my empirical study (you can check it yourself):

 

Search the first 100 images of dragon tosogu on a Yahoo image search of "tosogu dragon" (today's date)

RESULT:

3 toes = 100

4 toes = 0

5 toes = 0

 

I used "tosogu" in the search because it filters out the many fake Chinese dragon tsuba on the internet.

 

What happens when we apply the "3 toe" rule of thumb to an image search with fake Chinese tsuba mixed in?

 

Search the first 100 images of dragon tsuba on a Yahoo image search of "tsuba dragon" (today's date)

RESULT:

3 toes = 91

4 toes = 8 (BUT EVERY ONE OF THESE IS FAKE - see them below)

5 toes = 1 (BUT IT IS FAKE - see below)

 

While I hope that most of our membership can easily see that the 9 dragon tsuba (pictured below) that didn't have 3 toes are obviously fake, there are some who cannot see that and the 3-toe rule of thumb would be helpful to them.

 

While the issue of whether Chinese dragons can have 3, 4 or 5 toes under the law is interesting, we are talking about Japanese tosogu and shouldn't be diverted by red herrings or wild goose chases.  Also, a number of the 3 toes tsuba in the second search were also fake, but that does not change the usefulness of the 3 toe rule of thumb.  Further, the numbers are about the same in other forms of antique Japanese art.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[vajo]

I found these with 4 toes in namban style.

 

 

 

My thought was Japanese Dragons have almost 3 claws, Chinese 4 and Chinese emporer dragons 5.

[TETSUGENDO]

I found these with 4 toes in namban style.

 

 

namban_style_tsuba.jpg

iron_dragon.jpg

 

My thought was Japanese Dragons have almost 3 claws, Chinese 4 and Chinese emporer dragons 5.

Very nice tsuba Chris!    Good to see you/ and the others supporting this topic. 

 

Cheers,

    -S- 

p.s.-claw count may vary in both cases, always keep an open mind.

[vajo]

Thanks Steven,

 

these could be korean dragons.

 

Overall - it is impossible to say the dragon is chinese, korean or Japanese. They made all kind of dragons in Japanese art.

[Alex A]

I suppose this topic could become bit of an issue should you not do your homework and go out and have a dragon tattoo.................like i did as a youngster.

 

A few years ago I asked a tattoo guy what he could do about the dragon with 5 claws, he said "I could put a black square over each one" then he started laughing, along with me and a few others that worked in the shop.

[vajo]

This is a dragon on a roof in korea.

 

 

The tail is interesting too.

 

[Stephen]

Yea tattoo artist are notorious for adding toes. Think i seen one with six once. Most are four.

Search dragon tattoo flash.

[TETSUGENDO]

A friend of mine has a karashishi tattoo with extra toes and a strange tail, if your committing to something relatively permanent insist on a drawing and make what you want perfectly clear......then keep your fingers crossed.

 

-S-

[Curran]

I found these with 4 toes in namban style.

 

That would support the idea that Namban were foreign made. VOC and all that.

Without pulling out the Namban tsuba book, I think a sub section there is on Cantonese Namban. Your example strikes me as one of those.

 

George's argument is good. I had assumed there would be a 4 toe example in there.

Going through the ridiculous number of fittings images I have, anything pre 1900s has been 3 toed dragon. I thought I had a daisho image of 4 toed dragons, dated from the late 1850s- but they are 3 toes.

 

Dragon themes don't interest me that much. Because of Higo focus, I've had to look at an extensive number of Jingo examples and heard good arguments on flames, clouds, etc of earlier designs.

This is to say = No Wings in the 1600s and 1700s, but I thought they did until someone showed me otherwise. It gets debatable in some 1800s examples.