Tadahiro.

[O-Midare]

Good Day all, a friend of mine just bought this blade and flashed over this nakago shot of the mei. It is all the photos I have now. My question is does the mei resemble Tadahiro? When I have more photos I will post them.

[Ray Singer]

For a potential shodai like this, I would strongly recommend shooting a photo over to Roger Robertshaw for his assessment. Hizento.net. He is also a member (username: omidaijo) here on this board.

 

Best regards,

Ray

[O-Midare]

Thank You Ray, apparently it is in rough shape and my friend would like to authenticate to see if it is worth sending to Japan for restoration.

[Ray Singer]

Dwayne, Roger would be the best person to ask. Good luck to your friend. Nakamura Yutaka polished the one Hizen-to I have kept in my collection, so you can see the quality of his work below. Definitely suggest sending to Japan if it proves to be an authentic shodai.

 

[O-Midare]

Thanks Ray, he is wanting to have it properly restored in Japan if authentic, I suggest Paul Martin if it is authentic to broker the work for him.

[O-Midare]

That is a very fine hada. I have sent the photo to Roger.

[Ray Singer]

Paul is a good choice. He recently handled overseeing the restoration of a mainline Hizen-to for another member of our group here.

[O-Midare]

Some more photos

[Jacques]

katana mei with mei engraving which lacks of strenght (i did'nt go further). 

[O-Midare]

Thanks Jacques.

[Ray Singer]

The first red flag is that Hizen-to katana should be signed tachi-mei. Roger has written about exceptions though. Please update us after you have spoken with him.

[O-Midare]

This is the info passed on with the sword, it was just passed on to me, does this seem legitimate?

 

Hey, I dug up the info I had on the sword ... confirmed by two qualified ‘experts’ ....

 

Samurai Sword – Shodai Tadahiro Mei” wakizashi Short Sword

It has a signature purporting to be Shodai Tadayoshi in his Tadahiro period

unpaperd and unrestored

 

Shodai Tadayoshi is known as SHODAI TADAYOSHI regardless of how he signed, not generally as Shodai Tadahiro even after he changed his name in 1624 until his death in 1632, but the sword IS a “Shodai Tadahiro Mei” wakizashi – it has a signature purporting to be Shodai Tadayoshi in his Tadahiro period. Tadahiro mei (Tadahiro signatures) were generally made by deshi (students) on behalf of the shodai, hence there is some variation in the kanji, especially in depth of chisel stroke. The bolder deeper signed are by the master.

 

General Blade Condition: overall needs polishing

Fittings: generally poor, however the tsuba (guard) has a nice silver fukurin (edge work) and could look quite nice after proper restoration

Habaki: (collar) appears to be a double piece in gold plate (worn through) with a nice nice “cat scratch” design, can be restored.

The kissaki: (tip) has been broken and re-polished at some stage in its life since the curve of the cutting edge (fukura) in the tip area (Kissaki region) does not parallel the ko-shinogi (curved ridge area). The blade tip area needs to be re-shaped slightly by the polisher. This is common in older blades where the very tip is the weakest part of the sword, and often gets damaged over the centuries.

 

Qualifiers:

1. The sword is signed on the correct side for a wakizashi.

2. The yasurime (file marks ) are correct

3. The nakagojiri (end of the tang) is the correct shape for the period.

4. The signature itself has a high chance of passing shinsa in Japan.

[b.hennick]

"It has a signature purporting to be Shodai Tadayoshi in his Tadahiro period

unpaperd and unrestored"

I take this to read: 'here we have a gimei Shinto blade that needs complete restoration.... take your chances or Do you feel lucky?'

[O-Midare]

Thanks Barry, I will pass on this info.

[Tom Darling]

It isn't even 2nd generation. Good luck.

 

 

Tom D.

[Bazza]

It isn't even 2nd generation. Good luck.

 

 

Tom D.

Hi Tom,

 

I'm not sure what you're driving at with this comment - some reasoning please??  The mei reads MUSASHI DAIJOU FUJIWARA TADAHIRO, which as far as I'm aware is the Shodai's correct mei for his Tadahiro phase.  As well, even without going to the books, there are some characteristic features of the chisel strokes that suggest to me this has a real chance of being SHOSHIN.  Even if made and/or signed by the 2nd generation it would still be considered SHOSHIN for the Shodai.

 

BaZZa.

[Jacques]

Hi Tom,

.  As well, even without going to the books, there are some characteristic features of the chisel strokes that suggest to me this has a real chance of being SHOSHIN.  Even if made and/or signed by the 2nd generation it would still be considered SHOSHIN for the Shodai.

 

BaZZa.

 

Extract from The book of Roger Robertshaw about katana mei 

 

In trying to find the ‘truth’, and at the time of going to press, I have just acquired a fabulous sword which I believe is

by the 4th gen. Tadayoshi (see page 66). It is a 28” long katana with torii-zori and chû-suguha that is nie-deki and which

instantly reminds me of the first Tadayoshi sword that I bought so many years ago. This sword is a reflection of the work

by his father the 3rd gen. Tadayoshi, and it also has nijûba reminiscent of the work by his grandfather the 2nd gen.

Tadahiro. It has the 4th gen. long mei of “Hizen Kuni Jû Ômi Daijô Fujiwara Tadayoshi” which dates this sword to after

the death of both his father and grandfather, and was made when the 4th gen. himself had children. The mei is on a long

nakago that epitomizes the work of this smith in every detail. In my opinion the mei not only confirms the sword’s

maker, it adds value and character. Everything about this sword is koroai, and it has found its next guardian for my

lifetime. I said everything is koroai but there is, as always, one exception ... the mei is on the wrong side as it is signed

katana-mei which is exceptionally rare if it is indeed shôshin. As Barry Thomas said, “You have found your Nirvana!”.

I hope the Shinsa team later this year think the same way as I do because there is no doubt in my mind ‘Who’ made this

sword. My quest now is ‘Why’ is it signed this way!

 

 

I would add i've yet to see a papered Shodai Tadahiro katana with katana mei...  

[O-Midare]

Thanks Bazza, Thanks Jacques, there is a lot to digest here, some things look legitimate, some look sketchy. Roger Robertshaw has asked me to leave the pictures with him for a few days, and I will wait.

[Ken-Hawaii]

You're in good hands.

[O-Midare]

Here is the update, Thank You all for your time and Help.

 

I think......THINK.......it may be a late (Nidai?) Dai Mei for the Shodai, circa 1631.

 

I strongly suggest that you send it for Shinsa in Japan, as the NBTHK are the final authority on authenticity.

 

If it does go to Shinsa, I would be very interested in the outcome. They will only either pass or fail the sword at the Hozon level with no other information. If it passes , then pretty sure its dai-mei. If not, then gimei. Either way, I do not think it was signed by the Shodai.

 

P92 in my book has daimei examples.

 

If the sword was made by the Shodai, then it should have abundant visible nie, if ai-saku and made by the Nidai, then probably a narrow but distinct and bright white nioiguchi with some nijuba, and a shallow notare'. ...assuming it is suguha.

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

 

Kind rgds,

 

Roger

[Ray Singer]

Thank you for sharing and please keep us updated. There is a shodai dai-mei on Roger’s site which used to be in my collection.

[O-Midare]

Thank You Ray, I have passed all this info on to my friend and am waiting to see what they want to do now. I guess shinsa is in order, but will it be able to go to shinsa in its current condition?

[Ken-Hawaii]

Good question. I've seen better polishes, & I can't tell if there's a shirasaya.

[O-Midare]

No shirasaya, just an old saya and beat up tsuka.

[Tom Darling]

Here is a nidai Tadahiro, removed from the Dai Ichi Museum by a unit of the 1st Cavalry Division in 1945. Finest horimono ever seen, gyo no kurikara and ken etc. midare/gunome. in tachi mounts.  Make your own comparison, have fun. Peace. Tom D.

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Yes lets get realistic here . I don't think this has got a hope in hell of being genuine . We still don't know if it is a wakizashi or a katana although it looks like the latter .

 

If it is a katana then as others have pointed out it is signed on the wrong side . Now some of you I know will say that occasionally Hizen katana are signed Katana mei . True but really unusual . If this was genuine mainline then you would expect a well finished nakago and a beautifully cut mei . This piece has neither. There is also the problem that all of the katana length Tadahiro's that I have seen have Hizen kuni ju at the beginning of the mei.

 

If it is a wakizashi then it would be common to be signed simply Musashi Daijo Fujiwara Tadahiro as this one is , however the mekugi ana would be in the area of the Dai character and not at the top of the mei as here .

 

Can anyone point out a katana length piece signed Musashi Daijo Fujiwara Tadahiro where the mekugi ana is at the top of the mei like here ?? If you can I will eat my words

 

Ian Brooks

[Alex A]

Read this thread a few times and cant help a wondering that if someone wanted to fool folk with a gimei mei, then why put so much effort into making the mei look decent, but then make the mistake of inscribing it on what is most of the time, the wrong side ?

[Tom Darling]

What's up with the tsuka? It's twice as small or more than the nakago?  "That's All Folks!"

 

 

Tom D.

[SAS]

Tsuka is broken...."that is all"

[O-Midare]

Yes lets get realistic here . I don't think this has got a hope in hell of being genuine . We still don't know if it is a wakizashi or a katana although it looks like the latter .

 

If it is a katana then as others have pointed out it is signed on the wrong side . Now some of you I know will say that occasionally Hizen katana are signed Katana mei . True but really unusual . If this was genuine mainline then you would expect a well finished nakago and a beautifully cut mei . This piece has neither. There is also the problem that all of the katana length Tadahiro's that I have seen have Hizen kuni ju at the beginning of the mei.

 

If it is a wakizashi then it would be common to be signed simply Musashi Daijo Fujiwara Tadahiro as this one is , however the mekugi ana would be in the area of the Dai character and not at the top of the mei as here .

 

Can anyone point out a katana length piece signed Musashi Daijo Fujiwara Tadahiro where the mekugi ana is at the top of the mei like here ?? If you can I will eat my words

 

Ian Brooks

 

Further up in the post this was written.

 

 

but the sword IS a “Shodai Tadahiro Mei” wakizashi – it has a signature purporting to be Shodai Tadayoshi in his Tadahiro period.

 

 

It's a Wakizashi.